Fox Sports says Darius Miles for Andre Miller trade is done

Do the numbers ever lie?

Help me make a all-numbers / crappy players team:

PG:
SG: Mobley
SF:
PF: Jamison
C:

6: Houston

 

PG: Andre Miller
SG: Rip Hamilton
SF: Jamison
PF: SAR
C : Kandi

 

If the Clips offer Q for CM the Rockets would say "maybe", maybe if we include a Cato for Kandi or Mo for Brand swap while we are at it.

It is far easier to produce for a shorter period of time while playing with a front line that carries the load offensively and erases defensive mistakes. Hell, if you look at AD or SS averages for the Spurs I'll bet they statistically kill most all starting SGs over 48 minutes, but could either one (or Q) able to score over 20 shooting over 40% with a depleted team like the Rockets had?? You have got to be kidding me, no way.

One other thing, having 5 average to above average players doesn't make a great team. Great teams are better than the sum of their parts and have dynamic leaders to make others around them better (so far neither the Rockets or Clips have evidence for this). But if we want to play the who is better by position game--the Rocket backcourt (best in the league when healthy with little doubt) kills the Clips, the Clips forwards kills the Rockets, so it boild down to Kandi versus Ming. We will have to see about that one, but I don't expect Ming to shoot a horrible (for centers) sub 45% from the field--I'll take my chances with Ming, even this year.

Where did this Anderlicht come from, we have a had a lot of halfwitted posts lately and seem to have another contributor. I would sure like to bet him that the Rockets will have a better record than the Clips over the next 7 years--maybe then he will actually be out of high school and can pay up.

 

Let me play the devils advocate based on a negative response I read:


Miller is good, but his stats are over-rated---most of those assists came off of passes to JUMPSHOOTERS curling off the pick and roll and not drives to upset the defense and dishing to a big man.

He'll be in a world of hurt playing a stud PG night in and night out and he'll have to learn to play with big men now instead of looking for jumpshooters.



I don't believe it, but your thoughts?

 

Care to make a wager on Q averaging 22 ppg or above? That sounds like one of the safest best I've ever read.

The funny thing is, claiming "the numbers lie" is more of an argument for Cuttino than Richardson. Because Cat has the ability to create off the dribble, he creates more opportunities for others and loosens the defensive pressure on other players. Those aren't reflected in the stats.

And truthfully, stats "per 48 minutes" aren't exactly that valid. If Richardson were worthy of Cat's minutes, he would likely get them. It's not as if Eric Piatkowski is stiff competition. My point was that even if you are generous to Richardson and go with the "points per 48", there isn't a distinct line between the two. You can make the argument that the two are close (and that's a stretch), but to think that Richardson is clearly superior to Cat is insane.

 

Hey, if all you are looking at is PPG, then guys like LaMond Murray, Ron Mercer, Damon Stoudamire, etc are all very good players or have been recently.

There's just more to the game than that.

As many have noted before, Cuttino is the absolute MASTER at racking up points in garbage time, when thanks partly to his ill-advised, if not ridiculous shot selection, he's helped the Rockets fall behind by 20 points. Cuttino inflates his stats (which is the only thing he cares about really).

When Francis was out for 20 games, we saw what happens to a team with Cuttino as its best player. Not pretty at all.

Cuttino is the classic guy who can put up #'s on a bad team.

It's not even worth responding to the comment about Cuttino's defense, which everyone knows is poor at best, awful at worst.

Stats don't show you intangibles. Like when Cuttino refuses to hit the open man or takes a stupid shot which results in an opponent's fast break.

The guy finished 2nd among guards in minutes played last year and something like 300th among guards in total assists. Laughable. He's the worst passing 2 in the NBA. With all the new weapons on the team, Cuttino has to DRASTICALLY cut down on his shot attempts or be traded or benched. Now that we have Eddie and Ming and Nachbar and Steve, Cuttino needs to tone down his streetball mentality and start playing some TEAM basketball for once in his NBA career.

I honestly believe the Rockets are a better team without Cuttino Mobley. I realize it's a minority opinion on this site, but I'm a big believer in addition by subtraction. I believe Cuttino's selfish attitude carries over to his teammates and is extremely detrimental to the team. Players like KT feel like forcing things everytime they touch the ball because they know when Cuttino touches it, the ball's headed towards the rim (and usually not inside it). They don't feel like cutting to the hoop aggressively when Cat has the ball because they know Cat ain't gonna give up the rock. Things like that just don't show up on a stat sheet but they do it make harder for your team to win and have good chemistry.

Bench him or Trade him.

 

I think there might be two arguments here one if Cat is better than Q (which I haven't watched Q enough to know his potential) or if Miller is overrated b/c his numbers are inflated on a bad team. For the most part, I think a scorer's numbers will be inflated, but for the most part, your assists won't. This also depends on what type of offense you are running. I really don't think that Miller's assists numbers will decrease, I think they will increase. There will be far more options for Miller to pass to in LA, just maybe not as many jumpshooters.

 

The Clippers are amazing

Starting Lineup

A.Miller ( Pure Pg will make each one of them better )
Q.Richardson (Great shooter/All around player )
L.Odom (Great All around player , can do everything on the court)
E.Brand (An All-Star player one of the best Pf in the league )
M.Olowakandi ( Top 5 center , will only get better )

Bench

M.Jaric ( The best Pg in Europe )
C.Maggette (If he would work on his J he would be a star )
C.Wilcox ( A Beast , great potential )
M.Ely (Strong player , can score in the post great backup player)

If they would keep this team together in 2-3 years they are championship material , i dont what about you guys but i dont want to meet them in the playoffs with the right coach and experience they can go all the way .

I hope this trade wont effect us directly and i'm posstive that we we will make it to playoffs but the clippers deserve some props for what they did in the last years , great job .

( I know i have grammer mistakes but i'm too tired to fix them )

 

My offer is open.

1xxx posts means nothing. As I've seen on this and most "discussion boards", it's quality not quantity.

 

Btw, I just read your post. What the hell are you talking about? Clips have a better bench as well. Right now, I'll take Kandi over Ming. Ming hasn't played a single game! He hasn't played any summer league. He's playing International scrubs (national teams aren't sending their top players to those bs tourneys right now).

VC says Ming will be good? Lol. I bet Knight said he was good too.

That being said, I don't know if Ming will fail or succeed, but for now, I'll take Kandi who played well the second half of last season (albiet during contract talks).

Chemistry? Sum of all parts? Guess why the Clips aren't interested in McInnis? Miller will be a great complementary player who will collect assists and think shoot second (I know that's hard for Rocket fans to imagine....).

Clips have bangers. Brand was tops in offensive rebounds if I recall. Who the hell do the Rockets have to board? Francis? Come on.

Francis and Cuttino "kill" Dre and Piat/Q? You've heard about this thing called defense right? Q will just back Cuttino in the post at will. Piat was one of the league leaders in 3 point shooting. I give the Clips a slight edge.

Finally I personally think Q has more value around the league than Cuttino.

 

Cato-Bum,

You couldn't be further from the truth.

Here are Cuttino's past 3 years stats:

99-00 Hou 81 8 30.8 5.4-12.5 .430 1.3-3.6 .356 3.7-4.4 .847 1.1 0.4 2.3 2.1 0.0 0.7 2.8 3.5 2.6 15.8

00-01 Hou 79 49 38.0 6.7-15.4 .434 1.1-3.2 .357 5.0-6.0 .831 1.1 0.3 2.1 2.1 0.0 1.1 4.0 5.1 2.5 19.5

01-02 Hou 74 74 42.1 8.0-18.4 .438 2.0-5.1 .395 3.6-4.2 .850 1.5 0.5 2.4 2.6 0.0 0.A9 3.2 4.1 2.5 21.7

The 1st year Cat was strictly a 6th man and he still got 16, 4, and 3, with a respectable .430 shooting percentage and .36 percent from 3. Yes, he got lots of big minutes, but he produced quite well for only 13 shots.

The next year he finally became a starter and his fg% increased by 4 hundredths and his 3 point shooting stayed the same. However, his his points and rebounds went up. Also consider he did this with only Francis helping him on the court consistently. Taylor was inconsistent for much of the year, until the 2nd half and he and dream came up big some.

Now, last year. He played practically the entire season on a bum ankle which sapped his best quality: his first step, yet he still improved his 3 pt percentage and fg shooting along with upping his scoring avg-which I won't factor in because with all our injuries it was expected.

For comparison here are Michael Finley's 2nd-3rd and 4th years in the league stats:

Season 83 54 33.6 5.7-12.9 .444 1.2-3.4 .361 2.4-3.0 .808 0.8 0.3 2.0 1.7 0.0 1.1 3.4 4.5 2.7 15.0

Here he has a better fg percentage, about equal 3 pt percentage better rebounding and equal assists and about equal points to Cat.

Year 2

97-98 Dal 82 82 41.4 8.2-18.4 .449 1.1-3.0 .357 4.0-5.1 .784 1.6 0.4 2.7 2.0 0.0 1.8 3.5 5.3 4.9 21.5

Here is finley's first full year as a starter, on a horrible mavericks team.

His numbers are very similar to cuttino's first year as a full time starter. Equal points, a little better rebounding, better passer, worse 3 pt %, better fg%.

98-99 Dal 50 50 41.0 7.8-17.5 .444 0.9-2.7 .331 3.7-4.5 .823 1.3 0.3 2.1 1.9 0.0 1.4 3.9 5.3 4.4 20.2

This year finley's game regressed. But he still beats cuttino in fg%, rebounds and assists. However Mobley wins 3 point%, and points.

Since that year Finley has come into his own on the Mavs and steadily improved his game.

Now, it's evident that Cuttino is not the passer Finley is, but he is almost an equal or better shooter and can rebound as well.

Also consider Mobley's game has improved each year he's been in the league and while Finley is likely better now, it is not unreasonable to expect Cat to keep working hard and perhaps soon pass Finley, one of the NBA's elite shooting guards,
considering his stats compare very favorably to the same time frame in Finley's career.

As far as Richardson goes:

here are his last years numbers

81 0 26.6 4.9-11.4 .432 1.6-4.3 .381 1.8-2.3 .765 0.96 0.26 1.3 1.8 1.4 2.7 4.1 1.6 13.3

The fg percentage is similar to Cat was when he was a 6th man, he has a better 3 pt%, better rebounding at that time but worse assists.

At this point in time Cuttino, has a better fg% than Q, better 3 pt%, better free throw shooting, passing, steals while Q wins in rebounding. Also, mobley has done his work with very little help from his teammates so teams can gear to stop him.

Q, on the other hand, has had a lot of talent to play with in LAC so he gets to run with more free reign from defenses making it easier to put up the numbers.

Overall, at this time Cuttino Mobley is a better player than Quentin but Richardson is steadily improving and has a bright future in this league. Finally, Mobley's improvement year by year in his production proves he is an Elite SG and while his assist numbers may not compare to his peers, exactly who do you suggest he pass to last season? And even the year before, because for the last few years we have had one of the worst frontcourts in NBA history.

Therefore, I feel his stats are inconclusive in showing how good and willing a passer Cat is, because quite frankly who should he have passed to the last few seasons other than Steve, maybe Mo on occasion and Dream during his hot streak?

 

DVauthrin: you make some good points. One thing though, how did Dre lead the league in assists playing for the Cavs? Who'd he have to pass too? Maybe Cuttino just isn't a great passer and strictly a good scorer.

 

Miller had a lot of good jumpshooters in cleveland.

Like Langdon, Person, Harpring while he was there, Mihm can shoot, Murray as well.

Plus they ran a jumpshooting offense. So all he had to do was hit them in rythmn. Not that tough.

While cleveland never had a great 2nd scorer to help andre, they did have good role players who could shoot. Thus helping Andre get great assist totals.

Mobley has had Cato, yuck, KT-not a great shooter, Williams-inconsistent but a good one, Bullard-good, Rice-not enough pt to tell, Torres-not really, Taylor-good, but thats it.

Plus it's the pg's job to get the assists. The SG is there to score mainly.

I wasn't trying to compare Mobley to Miller assist wise because that's foolish, both have different roles on their respective teams. But what I was trying to show was how Cuttino's all around game has improved each year he has come into the league and gave a legitimate reason why his assist totals may not be as high as his peers yet we don't know how good of a passer he is: because of his role and his teammates.

 

It doesn't disturb anyone that the Cavs actually got worse each year under Andre Miller?

Why do y'all think he's going to make the Clippers better - he didn't do it for the Cavs.

Andre Miller has yet to play for a winning team in the NBA, and I have $20 that says that won't change next year.

BTW - Richardson better than Mobley, huh? I'm not sure where that crazy ass thought came from, but this kind of crazy thinking needs to stop.

 

No question Q has more value around the league than Cattino.

I've been reading all the posts on this topic, and I've got this say. You guys may be blind in thinking this trade won't effect the Rockets in a negative way but at least you're loyal.

There is only 1 team that this trade was bad for and that's the Rockets (maybe the Sonic, and T-Wolves too). Before this trade the Clipps were on about the same level as the Rockets as far as where they will end up when playoff time comes around. After the trade there is no doubt the Clipps will be better. Now that Miller has some talent to work with he will shine. His assist totals may dip a bit but have no doubt that the Clipps will be better. Look for Miller to have a similar impact that Kidd had on the Nets. Since they won't be playing in the East though look for the Clipps to end up with the 5th seed.

 

Miller led the league last year. Harpring didn't play last year as you pointed out. Langdon played in 44 games started none and averaged 11 minutes (39% shooting). Murray shot 43% and is a ball hog, Mihm their center shot worse at 42%. Their only good outside shooter is Person.

If the Cavs are a great shooting team, I shutter to think about the bad shooting teams.

 

Well Anderlicht my point was more focused that the Rockets have run an iso-oriented offense the past few seasons thus assists are harder to come by here.

In the games I saw vs the Cavs, they used a lot of pick/roll with their big men and a lot of screen/curls with person/murray etc.

That type of offense is more conducive to assists.

Is miller good? Yes, without a doubt.

Would I take him over Francis-no.

 

Would you take Francis over Miller on any team under any circumstance? Francis is an amazing player, but perhaps Miller is a better fit for the Clips.

 

Of course the Miller trade was a good one, that is not the question. But are the Clips championships material? In the near term, absolutely not!! Long term, who knows. Are they a playoff team next year? Probably, but I would be willing to make a solid bets the Clips don't get to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They are still a lot closer to the Wolves, Blazers and maybe us than they are to the Kings and Lakers. Those you counting them in the WC finals are the one's with the inflated opinions.

The Clips still do not have a go to guy the quality of the elites in the West. They don't have a Dirk, they don't have Shaq, they don't have a Kobe, they don't have a Webber (Brand might be the equal overall player but in terms running an offense through them they are not peers), they don't have a Duncan, they don't have a KG. Does the trade make it a little more difficult on the Rockets, sure, but there are still at least 4 other teams, defintely two, that are more a problem in the west so the sky is certainly not falling with this trade. Had it been Davis who is a lot like Miller but can be an unstoppable scorer all over the floor, the level of threat of the Clips would have gone up a notch--they could have been the 3rd or 4th best in the West if they jelled just right (another big id), but I would not count on that right now.

Those of ya'll that critisize Mobley and Francis for being ball hogs and bad defenders should wait until they have a front-line worthy of actually being passed to and solidifying the interior. Some of the totally ludicress things said about them suggest some of ya'll need your head examined for not considering what they had to work with. Until some of those things happen (they take a bad shot when a decent teamate has a better shot available) the call is hollow, hollow, hollow IMO. Personally, there is no doubt in my mind if Q and Miller played with the crap SF and CM did the last two years the Rockets would have been way worse. I am not saying the Rockets will be better than the Clips next year--but again, the Clips have never been more than a paper tiger (each year I think I hear this refrain) and there are bigger concerns our West.

I guess I should throw out statistics. Forget Mobley shot better from the field, 3%, FT than Q. Forget he got about 8 more points, more assists, more fouls drawn, etc. etc. Forget Mobley played with a mix mash of inferior quality players while managing to better Q in every statistical category . For get the Clips had one of the worst backcourt in the league surrounded by a fine frontline the defense would key on and Q was only allowed to play 26MPG. Sure, Q is better because I say so, right? I am not being harsh, Q has talent and is a good young player, but he would be a sub on the Rockets without a doubt.

 

And on the last question, no question I take Francis over Miller. Now if the headaches come back ask me again, but for now I take Francis. If I had to pick the 1 PG that would have been most scary for the Clips it very well might have been Davis--sort of hybrid between the two. Davis can distribute and has shown PG leadership and instincts, and more importantly like Francis can be a dominant individual scorer and shooter. The Clips, while solid all over, still do not have a dominant offensive player nor do they have great shooters around Miller--who himself is a poor outside shooter for a PG, teams are going to sag big time on them.