You just confused like a bunch of whole bunch of non houstonians sports fans or kids. On third and one? Allen Pinket time!
Since I lived in Houston during Dream's career, I saw almost every game he played. As a resident of San Antonio, I've seen a lot of Tim Duncan in his prime. I definitely, positively would take Dream over Duncan on my team every time. However, I would love to see that pair of Double D's play together in their primes. In fact, it might even be more fun than real Double D's.
in both MJ and Kobe case...early in their careers... they took way more shots and trusted their teammates less... I think there is a fine line between making your teammates better and your teammates sucking... I dont know where people get the idea that MJ's team were any good... aside from Pipen... the others were 2nd tier players at "their best...." if you pass the ball to a wide open teammate and they cant make the shot... at a reasonable rate.... your not gonna pass the ball the next time...your going to shoot it... please dont tell me a guy like Nash didnt make Amare and Marion better players than they really are...
Being a great player, in my opinion, is more than individual domination. If you have talent around you, and you're willing to share the ball and be a part of a team-oriented system, does that make you a worse player? I would say no, and I don't think that's an irrelevant point to make in this discussion. That its very difficult and very subjective to determine which player did more to make their teammates better does not make it irrelevant either.
More numbers to throw into the discussion: Playoff numbers through first 11 seasons: Olajuwon: 26.6 PER, 41 mpg, 27.8 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, 3.5 bpg, 3.1 tpg Duncan: 26.0 PER, 40 mpg, 23.4 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.7 bpg, 3.1 tpg Both have been exceptional playoff performers. Duncan is 4th all time in playoff PER, and Olajuwon is 5th (because of the dropoff in the post-championship playoff appearances). But Jordan is the only player in the modern era to have a higher career playoff PER than Olajuwon's PER up through the 95 playoff (Shaq is right there, and I exclude Mikan).
Duncan did not defer to Manu and Parker by choice when he has been shut down in playoffs. Popovich's first option was still to go to Duncan in those games. But as it became apparent in the series that Duncan was not taking advantage of one on one and that the other teams were refusing to send double coverage because single coverage was getting the job done on Duncan, Manu was asked to create more. Popovich dumped the ball to Duncan last year against the Lakers. Gasol kept him in check, which meant he could not create shot for others, which also means he did not exactly make others better. That load got shifted to Manu and parker. Manu had a bum ankle and could not deliver. Result? Spurs got kicked out. Do you not think that Popovich would have welcomed Duncan destroying the Laker's pansy frontcourt line?
No steals?? If you are going to include turnovers, why not steals?? Hakeem is in All time Top 10 in steals as a center. I would assume he has gotten a substantial amount in playoffs too.
durvasa, In your push to prove Duncan was the better rebounder, did you consider the fact that Duncan has played on one of the best defensive teams in NBA history? He is part of the reason for that but it has more to do with the system he plays in and the coaching. Put Duncan in GS and GS is still a crappy defensive team. All those missed shots opponents take lead to more opportunities for Duncan on the defensive boards. If Hakeem played in the Spurs' lockdown defensive system, he would outrebound Duncan on both ends. Stats are great but they often do not tell the entire story. Even Morey only uses stats as one of several tools to help him make decisions. The bottom line is that Hakeem would entirely own Duncan if their careers happened to coincide with each other and Duncan should be thankful that didn't happen. I don't need stats to see how obvious that is. Hakeem had a more complete skillset, far more athleticism and at least equal basketball IQ. Hakeem made his teammates better in every way that Duncan did as well as in ways that Duncan couldn't. Duncan can't take over at will for long stretches if his teammates aren't cutting it. He could do it for a play or two but not like Hakeem would do on a regular basis. Hakeem's also a more versatile defender and did more for his team on that end. He could do everything Duncan does defensively plus a lot more. Duncan doesn't block that Starks shot because he didn't have that freakish athleticism to chase down a quick perimeter player. Hakeem Olajuwon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Duncan
I never once said Duncan was the better rebounder. One guy made the claim that Duncan being a better rebounder was "flat out wrong", and another gave a statistical argument to show that it was "bogus". Rosen gave his opinion. I gave the numbers which I found to be most readily available and relevant, and it doesn't show Rosen to be flat out wrong.
This arguement is alot closer than alot of you want to make it out to be. I think the defining factor though would be that Hakeem Dominated centers, while Duncan had the opportunity to become a big PF alongside of the Mermaid. Anyone here can list the dominant centers of Hakeems era starting with Jabbar and ending with Shaq, but who was the trancendiant dominant PF's during Duncan's career? KG? Thats about it. Also Hakeem went through a transition like no other player I have ever seen. He wen't from the raw, athletic, run up the court part of the Fast Break, knuckles in your face Akeem, to the superior footwork, dazzing display of post moves, finess powerhouse Hakeem. Frankly, I think the Early years of Dream were some of the best all around both sides of the ball basketball I had seen from anyone over 6'6".
You can't go wrong with either one of these guys. Both were great defenders (Olajuwon was better, much better, but Duncan is solid), Both can hit a 20 ft jumper, both have a great amount of post moves (Duncan is simple, where as Olajuwon was artistic and strong) Both can handle the ball well (Duncan can run a fast break, Dream could cross you over) Both are great passers, (Olajuwon was a little turnover prone, but Duncan couldn't pass out of double teams the way Dream did.) The one difference with these guys is Dream's ability to carry a team for many years. Duncan has only had to do that once, in 2003, but that team wasn't bad either. Dream consistently had to carry teams from 87-94, doing just about everything. The Rockets team defense wasn't as good as the Spurs, so Olajuwon had to clean everything up, which he did with no problem. Olajuwon had better 3 point shooters, but Duncan had playmakers on his team who could take pressure off of him. Both of them had great rebounders next to them, but in 95 after Thorpe was traded, Dream had Robert Horry (a small forward at the time), Pete Chillcut, and Chucky Brown as his helping bigs. Tim Duncan has had David Robinson, Robert Horry (bulkier), Oberto, and Kurt Thomas, all servicable, although in 2003, he only had Nesterovic, which was not much help. I think Dream had to do much more for his team, and his athleticism allowed him to do so. However, Tim Duncan can't be blamed for having great management and having talent put around him. Dream, wasn't so fortunate until his 30's. I'll go with Dream, because he did much more, with a lot less. I think Duncan could do a comparable job to Dream in that situation, but Dream was a gifted athlete and player.
Nothing's certain. If we could go back in time and do over those 2 playoff runs, do we win back-to-back again? Part of what made those runs so magical was how we kept beating the odds. Particularly in that 1995 playoffs. The Rockets showed great fortitude when facing adversity, but luck played a significant role as well. How many things had to go our way for us to pull off that series win against Phoenix in 1995?
A big reason why the Rockets won those two series was because of Hakeem's brilliance. Yes they beat tremendous odds, but you needed Hakeem's stellar play in each of the series to beat those odds. 1) Do you see Duncan dominate the Jazz both years like Hakeem did? As I said, Duncan was contained by an aging Malone. Why wouldn't a prime Malone contain him? 2) Do you see Duncan handling the physical play of Ewing/Oakley/Mason? 3) Do you see Duncan dominate David Robinson the way Hakeem did? 4) Do you see Duncan match Hakeem's performance against Shaq in finals? I dont see any of the above, and that is why I dont see Duncan win those two years. Converseley, I don't think Hakeem would have problem matching Duncan's performance in the year Duncan has won championships.
I don't think Duncan could have replicated what Hakeem did for us in those championship years. Dream was just on a different plane. Does that totally rule out the possibility of us winning championships? That's harder to say. Duncan plays a different style, the system might have evolved differently to utilize his strengths, and consequentially how the other players performed could change. I don't think any us can be so definitive as to say "Oh, Duncan never would have won a championship with those teams." Duncan is a great player, and as long as he has quality teammates around him (and those Rockets teams had quality players) I think he'd always have a decent chance at winning a championship.
The 94 team had only one creator, Hakeem. Rockets needed Hakeem to command double teams to open things up for their teammates. If Duncan would not create for others practically every time down the court, the offense would go stagnant. I dont see too many solutions other than Duncan running pick and roll with Maxwell/Smith/Casell thru most of the game. I just don't see any of those as a dominating combo. The 95 team had Drexler and Duncan would have fared better on this team compared to the one in 94. However, I still dont see Drexler and him combining to go berserk like the way Hakeem did. The 95 Hakeem was even better than the 94 Hakeem. And despite Hakeem's spectacular play, the games/series still went down the wire. Duncan replacing Dream does not totally rule out us wining championship during those two years, but the chances for it would be very very low (assuming everything else stays constant of course). That Rocket team with Duncan would be a contender but I don't see them winning.
