One of the best Hakeem mixes I've seen on Youtube: <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CmLR_VgbqAA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CmLR_VgbqAA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> There has never been a big man with his mixture of talent and physical ability. As for my comments about Hakeem traveling ... maybe it was an overstatement. I have a weird bug in my brain about over-scrutinizing Rocket players. Yeah, Hakeem got away with traveling at times, but you guys are right on occasion he got called for traveling when what he did was legit.
duncan is a great big man. but he's also fortunate to play in a watered-down era of big men for most of his career. how do you explain a 37-year old shaq putting up 19 and 9 on 61% shooting on just 30 minutes of play? hakeem dominated against arguably the best era of big men. dude was a beast. and i keep repeating, arguably the best 2-way player of all time.
Shaq's a freak of nature? He's gone 18/13 against Yao and 19/11 against Dwight. Are Yao and Dwight "watered-down" players compared to the typical center in the early 90s? This whole argument about "water-down era of big men" is really overstated, IMO. Defenses are allowed to pack in the paint in ways they could 15 years ago with the new zone defense rules. If Duncan (or Yao, for that matter) was playing in the early 90s, he'd put up better numbers. Dikembe Mutombo averaged 17/12 his rookie year in 91-92, btw.
dikembe was actually a pretty good offensive player when he was young and not turtle-ish like today. sure defenses pack the paint, but that's for every player. it's not like they just pack the paint for big men. the premier perimeter players face tough illegal defenses that weren't legal back then. it hasn't stopped kobe, lebron, wade from doing their things and putting up ridiculously #s. and you must admit, the game isn't as physical back then also. when i mean big men, i mostly mean centers. i put shaq in the past 2 months as a top 2-3 center in the game AT 37 years old. i don't care what kind of freak of nature you are. he's putting up stats dwight or yao are putting up IN THEIR PRIME (similarly). michael jordan shot WAY below his usual 50% in his older days. and he was the greatest of all time. i mean i watched the game last night b/t howard and shaq, i truly thought shaq was better. and it's not just a one game thing. if he's healthy (like he is right now), you can still argue shaq is the most dominating center in the game.
The rules have changed to make things easier for perimeter players, and harder for post players. Jordan's FG% dropped in his late 30s because the things he relied on -- quickness, height on his jumper, the acrobatics -- deteriorated with age. Shaq isn't as quick as he used to be, but he's got the same bulk and strength he's always had and that's a big part of his game. 37-year old Shaq, transported to the early 90s, would be putting up even better numbers.
I realize I'm a Rockets fan and biased.... but I can't imagine watching these 2 players over their careers and ever thinking Duncan was the better one.
i highly doubt shaq at 37 would put up these #s if he faced the better big men of the 90s like he did the past 2 nights in gasol and howard. highly doubt that.
I will keep this short and simple. You could not stick Rasheed Wallace on Hakeem and get away with it (the Pistons would have if not for Horry and Manu). You could not stick Robert Horry, Horace Grant or Karla Malone on Hakeem and get away with it (the Lakers did this in 01, 02 and 04). You could not stick Pau Gasol on Hakeem and get away with it (the Lakers did this in 08). Duncan, as great as he is, DOES NOT HAVE THE EXTRA PEP IN HIS STEP TO DESTROY YOU OFFENSIVELY NIGHT IN AND OUT. He is a good, consistent scorer....but he has never been a great dominating scorer. And his team has needed him to be that on many occasions in the postseason, and he could not deliver. Similar to today, if my team needs a dude to drop 35-40 a night for me to win...the 3 dudes that can currently do it are Kobe, LeBron and Wade. When it comes to recent pivots, Shaq and Hakeem fell in that category. Duncan does not. If you can't destroy a combo of the Wallace boys, Gasol/Odom (both too small for the C spot) or a slower Shaq and Grant/Horry....then you can't convince me that you could destroy the likes of younger Shaq, in prime Robinson or the Ewing/Oakley/Mason combo. That's asinine. And not only could he not destroy these dudes, but he played like (*&^. Go back and see the numbers nd shooting %'s from those series....
Offensively, he went to another level. He showed more patience, an unreal feel for the game and the team chemistry during that time was unreal. I know he was always a great player and was actually a better defender early on but in the early-mid nineties he was arguably the best player in the game. When Jordan was out there is no doubt Dream was the best in the game. In fact, Dream's play during that time is what made his legend outside of Houston. Had he not gone on a tear during that time I guarantee you people outside of Houston would be telling us that David Robinson and Patrick Ewing were better Centers.
To me comparing Duncan to Dream is like comparing Kobe to MJ. Two of them are great players that will someday be HOF(Duncan/Kobe), and the other two were great players that are HOF but also legendary. Duncan has always been very consistant thru-out his career, but he has never been that monster on both ends that Dream was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part most teams played Duncan straight up(one on one). He got double nowhere near as much as Dream. If you played Dream one on one you would get torched..see D. Robinson. Dream would not only get double but some teams would triple team him. The so-called hardnosed best defensive team(New York Knicks) with a real good center, had to double Dream. Now that to me should be put into account and seperate Dream from Duncan.
Dream induced tons of fouls - not his fault the refs tended to swallow their whistles on his makes. I imagine the refs tire of Duncan's feigning innocence and crying for his free throws. Ugh. So annoying. I'd also take Dream in a fight over Duncan.
Absolutely the best post of the thread. The Duncan/Hakeem comparison is so ludicrous that it doesn't merit discussion. Duncan has had a consistently unspectacular career. His numbers and playoff performances don't in anyway substantiate the case for putting him in the rarified stratosphere of the Hakeems/Shaqs/Wilts, etc. Duncan has choked and had 13-15 point games on numerous occasions in the playoffs on dismal shooting. I don't ever remember a game where Hakeem was neutralized in the playoffs (unless it was the Seattle illegal defense) by players the caliber of Rasheed Wallace and Robert Horry. His "legendary" performances came against the likes of Jason Collins in the finals against the Nets. I say this with no exaggeration, that Hakeem may well have averaged 55-60 ppg against that New Jersey Nets front line if he was able to average 40 against reigning MVP David Robinson.
lol @ duncan having better footwork than hakeem. Nobody had better footwork than hakeem, especially not tim duncan. duncan has a better midrange bank shot, and he has a better whiny face to make at the refs. Hakeem was the better defender, and better on offense also. if hakeem and duncan were in the primes at the same time, duncan would get dominated just like ewing and robinson did.
This is a ridiculous comparison because there is no comparison. Fundamental footwork? Are you kidding me? This is like saying Dale Ellis is better than Jordan because he always set his feet and squared up properly before shooting, unlike Jordan, who took some off-balance shots. To compare the footwork of Ellis and Jordan is as absurd as comparing Duncan and Dream. Duncan's great, but not in the same league as Dream. While Duncan's won 4, he is not the clutch player Dream was... just look at his 4th Q free throws in recent finals as irrefutable proof. Also, if you're a coach and you have Duncan going against Dream, you automatically double team Dream. Period. If you have Dream guarding Duncan, you don't have to double. And here's the clincher... Dream took the toughest post player on D the entire game. Robinson, Ewing, O'Neal? If they're in the game at the same time, Dream's guarding them. The Spurs go out of their way to keep Duncan from guarding the best post players because they are afraid he'll either get burned or pick up fouls. That's why they have guys like Nazr and Oberto and Thomas continually cycling through the Spurs roster. Duncan on Dream would mean Duncan on bench because he'd be in foul trouble all night. Not even close. That article is an insult.
First, Duncan will go down as a great player and his game offensively is probably more like Dream's than any other current player. I think the discussion is ok. Saying that, I do agree with your other points. Duncan has guys brought in to defend other bigs while that was all Dream. The biggest thing though is just like you said. Were they playing heads up, you'd have to double Dream. Duncan would not demand that and would not have great numbers against #34. I agree with some of you that said Rosen really didn't hit on the defensive aspect of Hakeem. That puts him far and away over Timmy. As for the spurs rings, well TD has had some solid help in that department. Robinson didn't do it on his own, but TD put them over. The fact that Tony Parker got a Finals MVP shows that he carried the load for them. Manu Ginobli is no scrub either.
The butt thing was used to emphasize his point that Duncan was a better rebounder than Dream. If you had a wider butt you can block out guys better-just ask Chuck Hayes. I also think Rosen doesn't consider Hakeem's dream shake moves as "low post", since he considers them as face up shake and bake moves. He's probably think Duncan has better footwork because of his bank shots. Anyway, there's nothing really wrong with his assessment, especially the part about choosing Hakeem over Duncan.
