maybe i was too subtle with that one. apparently, i need to elaborate. that's cool... first of all, i did not say he is a top 10-12 guard in the league. hell, no one in this entire thread did. Desert Scar said mobley is a top 10-12 SG in the league, which he is. care to show me 12 SGs that are clearly better? as for how he helps the team get a "W", i'm beginning to question you're basketball wits. dude, there are only 4 SGs in the entire nba that can be "the man" and lead their team to over a .500 record. i'll count them off for you: 1. tmac 2. kobe 3. AI 4. vince carter (plays SF, but i believe he's better suited as a 2) other than that, the nba is filled with 2 guards that have to be complementary parts to a greater system and more importantly, a greater PLAYER. mobley is that type of player, and at 20ppg, is one of the better ones in the nba. i won't even factor in the small amount of $$ it makes, since it doesn't affect his play. but suffice it to say that his production/$$ ratio might be the best in the nba. i'll tell you this, though. if/when yao becomes a dominating force for the rockets, mobley will become one of the top 5 shooting guards (efficiency wise)in the nba. guarantee it. why? because no team will choose to focus on mobley over francis and yao. thus, he will be single covered regularly, if not rotated off of occasionally. any guard with any degree of talent thrives in this situation. see: byron scott ... see: sam cassell in 94 ... see: jaren jackson in '99 ... see: richard jefferson in 2002/2003 ... "Show how he is able to play within a team concept. Show me something to believe that you have a case" did we have any kind of team concept whatsoever last year? i mean, we started with mobley and francis being the offensive impetus. then we morphed into some crap where yao (who wasn't ready for it) because the impetus with francis trying to be a better point guard, with mobley being at once pure scorer, and at other times (namely when steve had his head up his ass) being asked to be a shooting guard that passes a lot, too. wtf was that? look, if you want to hear a system that puts mobley in a team concept, i'll give you one: yao as the offensive impetus halfcourt. not the be all/end all, but the hub of the halfcourt offense. francis as the open court star. mobley as the guy 1) to create shots when the clock's running down (along with steve); 2) carry the offense when yao/steve are resting; 3) play tough d on opposing 2 guards 4) shoot the spot up 3 off of double teams on yao & steve. these are all things that mobley has proven he can do. proven it. but he has not been able to do them all at once, imo, because the rockets have lacked a truly dominating offensive force. if/when yao becomes that, mobley could settle into this role and, as you say, "play within a team concept"....
First, I am not going to calculate the PPS of each of these players. But next time you make such an argument, it would be nice if you provided the numbers. But going by your word... Last time I remember, Carter was on the most over rated players in the history of Sports on ESPN. No body said Iverson is the answer to a championship. Why do you think, nobody would trade for Iverson? You think it's because of his bad rap? Wrong, it's his inability to be an efficient player and make his teammates better. As for Finley, I never considered him an all star caliber player although he did make it a few years ago to the all star ballot. Maybe one of the reasons why we don't win cause our so called 2 star players on the team have such low points per shot out put compared to other elite teams? Hummm..intresting.... This is also extremely important because we are not a high octane offense who puts up lots of shots, therefore each shot that is taken is even more important that is it made.
That happened last year. He was single covered regularly (who double covers someone 15 feet away from the basket?) and he had plenty of wide open looks. Yao was a "threat" last year all the way til about the last 2 weeks in the season. Teams constantly double-teamed him. When they ran the pick and roll, Yao's man never left him leaving Cat in a 1 on 1 situation. There were also times when the team would swing the ball side to side leaving Cat wide open for the 3 point shot and he couldn't convert. He's not a pure shooter, open or not. He''ll always be limited by what he can do. Think about this: Did Cat have more open shots last year with Yao or in previous years with Cato? When was the last time Cato was double covered? Cat will always be an above average SG and nothing more.
ok, i get it. you won't respond to logic. like i said, jackson is a product of his team's environment. put daniels in jackson's position, and you'd get remarkably similar results. maybe not the exact same #s, since their style of playing does have some differences. but their impact would be very similar. pps is ridiculous, sorry. and you just stated why, without even knowing it. pps does not facotr in "bail out political calls from the refs" that some players get and others do not. it does not factor in the role that player plays on his team. it does not factor in his teammates. it does not factor in what he has been asked to do. in short, it's a straight line method of determining a person's offensive prowess and is an insult to the intelligence of a true basketball follower. *readjusting glasses* um, the only thing that indicates offensive efficiency is looking at the player actually playing the game, with the understanding of who his teammates are, what his role is, what the defense is doing, and how well/poorly he completes his task. there is nothing that you have stated that convinces me, or any one else in this thread, that antonio daniels could not perform the job for sac that bjax has done. better penetration? bjax defender? daniels faster? even quicker? bjax clutch shots? bjax finisher? daniels shooter? even but none of those things (some of which you brought up) make a difference unless you see both players in similar situations. antonio and bjax were in similar situations when daniels was in san antonio and bjax in sac (currently). the only difference was that daniels was asked to play more d, and not to score as much as bjax. that said, he performed admirably. if you put bjax on those spurs' teams, he probably would have had a comparable impact. he would've been more effective in some areas, and less in others. the key] was duncan and the way daniels played off of him. if bjax could do the same, they'd have identical impacts.
1) the man that doubled yao was consistently james posey's or eddie griffin's. 2) cat had a good year. 3) cat played on 2 bad ankles the entire season. 4) bad ankles lower a player's performance. 5) no one has ever called cat a pure shooter. 6) who cares what he did with cato? his role was different then. 7) which is what we've said he is. no one's called him a superstar. no one's said he's a HOF'er. the furthest i went was saying he'd be a top 5 shooting guard, as far as his efficiency and impact on the game, if/when yao becomes a dominating force (which he has not been, yet). nba shooting guards ranked from #5-#15 are all above average shooting guards and nothing else, by definition...
oh, and yao being a "threat" is a far cry from yao being "dominant". when yao becomes "dominant" the entire teams level of play will magically increase...
People will always leave Eddie or James Posey and that's not going to change regardless whether Yao gets better. And there were times when Posey or Eddie would swing the ball to Cat and he couldnt convert. He needs the ball in his hands and create his own shot. Cat had a decent year. I agree about the injuries. However, Im still not sure if Yao's improvement will improve Cat's game. He's not good at shooting off screens (ala Rip Hamilton, Alan Houston, or Reggie Miller). Those are shooting guards who might not be better than Cat but would be better suited for our team (not factoring in contracts of course). I would much prefer a Michael Redd than Cat.
verse, <B>HUH? WHAT? I’m having a headache just reading your lack of argument</B> You just stated that Points Per Shot isn't an important statistical factor because it doesn’t include free throw trips to the line? HUH? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. You said: </I>“pps is ridiculous, sorry. and you just stated why, without even knowing it. <B>pps does not facotr in "bail out political calls from the refs"</B> that some players get and others do not.”</I> <B>PPS does include free throw points!!! </B> And when did I say it doesn’t? Why do you think it’s called points per shot? Here is what I said: <I>" Points Per Shot which is a true indicator of the offensive efficiency as well as the bail out political calls from the refs which send the player to the free throw line.”</I> <B>AT WHAT Point do I say PPS does not include free throw points?</B> When the statistic was logged on ESPN during the regular season they had PPS out put which includes all points divided by shots taken. Hence, PPS!!! <B>Listen, the more you type, the less you are making sense.</B> I’m not even sure what you are trying to argue other then PPS is ridiculous while everyone else in the living breathing basketball world knows that PPS is a much better indicator of a players offensive efficiency then just FG percentage.
x_trepidation_x, you've completetly missed my point. do you think every nba player gets the same calls? do you think it factors in blown calls? and more than that, does it tell you how that player is getting their points? the style of ball they play? these things are much more important than any stat you can conjure. if that doesn't make sense to you, so be it. you continue being statboy. i'll keep watching the game. you must have been a bench rider, i swear. x_trepidation_x: "look coach! my pps is better than johnny's! that means i'm a better player!! put me in!!" coach: "yes, trapezoid, but all you shoot is open layups. 2 of them per game. because you suck and the other team knows it." x_trepidation_x: "yea, but his pps is lower than mine!" coach: "trap. please sit down and shut up." x_trepidation_x: "stupid coach doesn't understand statistics. i'm a better player. my pps says so."
when you argue with a fool, no one can tell the difference. i should be ashamed of myself. in fact, i am. i'm moving on to someone, err, something more productive...
Verse, Listen, we can both express our ideas here. Maybe you have a point, but I just don't see it. I offer my opinion, offer some analysis, then I try to back it up with raw numbers and statistics that I believe bolster my case. That is all I'm doing. Unfortunately, I don't understand your points some times. That is okay, cause some people on this board probably agree with you 100%. Lets just chill, and have a drink... Lets just blame Mooch for all of the Rockets problems.
Thanks for hijacking my simple thread about the reported Antonio freakin Daniels into a pissing contest about points per shot. First, verse never said anything about pps not factoring FTs, he simply commented on your cockamamie "political" calls thing. Points per shot is simply not a good stat. Here is a simple scenario: Player A: Hits a 3 pointer, then makes a layup. Player B: Hits a jumpshot, goes for a layup, misses and is fouled, hits 2 free throws. Player A's pps= 2.5; Player B's pps=4. On 2 possessions, Player A scored 5 points. On those same 2 possessions, player B scored 4 points. See the problem. It's even more simple to see the problems with pps. If a player is fouled en route to a layup, makes the bucket and hits the FT, that's a pps of 3. If a player is fouled, misses the bucket, hits 2 FT, that's 2 points without a FG. But, since that creates a better pps, clearly you'd rather see a player miss the continuation. Points per shot is a pretty decent measuring stick for a player to draw fouls and take advantage of it. Hence, you see guys like Edy Curry and Brad Miller #3 and 4 overall in the league- they gets to the line, shoot a decent FT%, and shoot a good FG%. The Diesel is first, and Kirilenko is 2nd. Um, Andrei Kirilenko. You mean to tell me that a stat that has Carlos Boozer over Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal, Eric Snow over Steve Francis, Corey Maggette over TMac and Kobe, an Andrei Kirilenko only bested by Shaq as a measure of offensive "efficiency" means much of anything? Right. More musings as far as Cuttino's pps is concerned. You do realize that Cat has an identical pps to Jason Kidd, and a better pps than Kerry Kittles- the starting backcourt in the Finals. Posey had a better pps than both Martin and Marion, and all of these players mentioned are better than Webber and Baron Davis (and MJ), who were 95, 99, and 98 in the rankings. PS- For someone who props the magical nature of points per shot so much, you would think you would know that ESPN has lists of the stat on its site.
OK, want some PPS stats for SGs with qualifying minutes: 1.33 T-Mac 1.29 Pierce 1.28 Kobe 1.28 Redd 1.27 DA 1.26 AHou 1.26 Allen 1.26 Stack 1.25 Rip 1.22 BJ 1.22 Terry 1.20 Cat Mobley 1.19 Kittles 1.17 Wesley 1.17 AI 1.16 Carter 1.16 S Jack 1.15 Wells 1.15 Rose --other notables--- 1.11 Finley 1.11 Davis 1.10 J Rich 1.08 Spree 1.08 Cheney 1.01 J Johnson BTW Francis PPS (1.30) is even better than Mobley's and one of the best of any guard. Francis is only one of 7 guards at 1.30 or above--TMac, Stockton, Billips, Cassell, Snow and Nash are the other 6. Offensive production and individual offensive efficiency is not one of Steves problems. Defense and a/to are two of his problems. Here are some other notable PPS for PGS: 1.27 Arenas 1.25 Bibby 1.22 Parker 1.20 Kidd 1.18 Marbury 1.17 Hudson 1.17 Dre 1.11 GP 1.10 NVE 1.07 B Davis 1.07 JW (Mem) Seeing all this should remind you as valuable as 1 efficiency stat like PPS is, or even many stats, they don't tell the whole story. Some players w/o Mobleys PPS are better than him, some with better PPS are worse than him as a total player. Likewise I am not going to say Francis is better than Kobe, Pierce, Kidd or Marbury simply because he has a better PPS. PPS is important--but not the whole story. This was the whole darn argument. Mobley is around a top 12 SG and certainly better than half the starting two guards in the league. We have more critical positions to upgrade than CM's. I like Redd, but not instead of Cat. Redd is a better pure shooter--but that is about it. Mobley plays better defense, is a more dynamic player, and better at getting other people shots (breaking down the defense) or getting to the line. Redd IMO is way too 1 dimensional and ideally you have him off the bench. Derrick Anderson I might buy--but he has been much more brittle than Mobley and may or may not be a better fit. Personally, I think to majorly improve our team via the SG position with an outside player you would have to get a Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton. If someone shows me a plausible way to do this I'll listen or a plausible comparable level big 1 that allows us to shift Francis to the 2, otherwise, and more realistically, I think our attention should be on upgrading our forward spots.
Sorry, I'll try to return as well. We can do a lot better than Daniels. Oillie, Peeler, Piatowski, Barry, maybe even Ward--all would be guards who bring much more valuable contributions than AD IMO. AD isn't a bad player, but is not exceptional in any single area (shooting, defense, setting up the O, discipline, headiness) and is largely duplicative compared to the guys I mention.
Desert- In terms of backup PG, agreed. Daniels, IMO, is the type of backup Rudy would like. He does a lot of different things, none too well, and is multipositional due to his size. He has a "high ceiling" but is up and down A guy like Ollie is different. He brings defense and consistency with the ball, and you know exactly what you're gonna get. Same can be said for the other guys (Peeler, Barry, Pike, Ward). I agree completely in terms of Cat over Redd because Cuttino is te dynamic player. Hamilton would be a great SG fit for us because he combines the factors. Outside of that, I don'tsee many options, except with Posey's 40% shooting from 3 point land over the last 1/4 of the season, I wouldn't be opposed to moving him to SG (with Cat off the bench) in the event Snackbar steps up, or in the more unlikely event the Clippers let go of their stranglehold on Odom.
I wouldnt mind having Daniels or Ollie because they will both be 100 x better than Moochie. Cat is a decent defender but is probably overrated. He'll shut someone down one game and let them go off for 30 in another. He appears to be a better defender than he actually is because his counterpart, Francis, is terrible. Regarding Michael Redd. Redd is 4 years younger than Cat and in my opinion has a lot more upside. Redd is very similiar to Hamilton (same height, Redd's a little heavier) with more range. Redd is a fantastic 3 point shooter and Hamilton isn't. Hamilton's defense is not great either.
I don't understand what all the hype about Richard Hamilton is. He shows flashes of brilliance. On offense, he can hit a few 3s, and can shoot the J over a pick, but even then he is not consistent. And on the defensive minded Pistons team, he seems to me to be a weak link. Michael Redd is a better player, even if he is just a 3 pt specialist with few defensive skills. At least he's really good in one specific area, which just happens to be something the Rox will need once Yao becomes a dominant post presence. I'm sure JVG would force him to work on his D, making him a complete player. In college, he wasn't a lights-out shooter; definitely nowhere near where he is now. He definitely has the upside and potential to become great. I'd take Redd over Rip, but keeping Cat (for now, and seeing what JVG can do for this team) is the best option right now. Ollie and Pike seem like decent role players for the Rockets to look at. FORGET AD!!!
