I think you're the only one trying to downplay things. Verbal sparring would be on par with shouting. I don't recall them having a polite disagreement, do you? It attracted the announcers and camera's attention, so I'm not sure how exactly you're framing this as just some minor argument. I also showed you that this wasn't just a one time thing, so your "he's just young, he matured from that!" argument is out the window. He's an immature player whose poor attitude affected both his team and his own play in the biggest series of his life. Von Wafer isn't a kid; he's a grown man paid millions to do a job. You shouldn't be justifying his actions because your kids talk back from time to time, that's silly. Here's what we know: +Von is a good, not great, individual offensive talent -Von struggled to find his teammates and often had his mind up early that he was shooting off the drive. -Von got into a "verbal altercation" with a Hall of Fame coach in the 2nd round of the playoffs, which led to him being banished from the bench for the rest of the game. -Von has had a hard time finding a market; I think he initially turned down a Rockets offer of around $2million? I don't know if I'm recalling that right. -Adelman coached him for a full year, and talked about how his playoff episode was not his first time acting up, insinuating they've had problems with his attitude before. -Adelman coached him for a full year... and hasn't told Morey to bring him back with complete certainty, based on how little the Rockets have pursued him this offseason. (ROX offered Gortat 3-4 million, presumably with signing their 2nd rnders to 3 yr deals with rest of MLE in mind - Wafer did not factor in there) I'm not jumping to any conclusions, in fact you are: I never said I disliked the guy. I think he's a great scoring punch, but I don't think he's a "must-have" or "steal" as you seem to believe. I think when you like someone, you ignore their obvious faults and just pitch their "potential" - Novak, VSpan, and now Wafer apparently. Tell me, who were you right about that everyone else doubted? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't like the guy; especially when they lay out logical arguments as to why they don't. You shouldn't loosely throw around the "well you just don't like him" card, it diminishes your argument.
There is way too much talk on this forum about a player who will be lucky to make more than the minimum next year.
Never liked Novak, I get lumped in there, but Vspan I still like and think he would have flourished under Adelman. I like potential in players, guys that can help win......I latch onto them...Von is one of those guys... I just look at the game a bit differently than a lot of folks I guess..... No worries though.......if he goes he goes...... I still think he signs for a cheap contract. DD
Don't tell me you can learn BB IQ and court vision. You can tell from his slashing he did not know when to slow down and find other options. And his ball handling is not all good either.
Actually when he was starting, he did pretty good at moving the ball, and when asked he found teamates....my take is that he knows numbers get the $$$$$ and he was on a one year non-guaranteed deal. I think he plays more team ball if he has some security. Again...we are talking about a deal in the $1.1 million range or slightly more than the minimum....why not? DD
Here are some facts: Letting your man score 9 points in just over 2 mins with 2 offensive rebounds during a key end of the season 4th quarter against the Spurs. At the end of that sequence, Adelman calls timeout and pulls Wafer. Von's line for the same game - 1 point? Name M FG-A 3P-A FT-A OFF DEF REB AST STL TO BS PF PTS V. Wafer 17 0-2 0-0 1-2 0 1 1 2 1 2 0 0 1 4 8:47 SAS shot Tony Parker Ime Udoka 2 made layup 4 8:46 HOU timeout regular 4 8:46 HOU sub Shane Battier Chuck Hayes 4 8:46 SAS sub Michael Finley Matt Bonner 4 8:31 HOU shot Kyle Lowry 2 made driving layup 4 8:23 SAS shot Tony Parker missed layup 4 8:22 SAS rebound Ime Udoka off 4 8:15 SAS shot Tony Parker missed 3pt 4 8:14 SAS rebound Ime Udoka off 4 8:13 SAS shot Ime Udoka 2 made layup 4 7:57 HOU turnover Shane Battier bad pass 4 7:41 SAS shot Tony Parker missed jump 4 7:40 SAS rebound Kurt Thomas off 4 7:34 SAS shot Tony Parker Ime Udoka 3 made 3pt 4 7:12 HOU shot Von Wafer missed driving reverse layup 4 7:10 SAS rebound Michael Finley def 4 7:00 SAS shot Kurt Thomas missed jump 4 6:58 HOU rebound Kyle Lowry def 4 6:45 HOU shot Kyle Lowry missed layup 4 6:43 SAS rebound Michael Finley def 4 6:36 SAS shot Tony Parker Ime Udoka 2 made jump
I can follow you till the 1.1 m margin. Where did you come across that. To me obviously he went overboard and was kinda disappointed with 2 million and sought a better and longer deal within the FA market.
i am not sure of what your definition of moving the ball is and finding teammates because when he started: Games as a Starter: Memphis (12/08/08) 0 assists 31 min Atlanta (01-03-09) 2 assists 40 min philly (01-06-09) 2 assists 26 min boston (01-07-09) 1 assist 27 min thunder (01-09-09) 1 assists 35 min knicks (01-10-09) 3 assists 32min lakers (01-13-09) 1 assist 39 min heat (01-17-09) 3 assists 40 min nuggets (01-19-09) 1 assist 30 min utah (01-21-09) 2 assists 33 min pacers (01-23-09) 2 assists 33 (rounded minutes up if it was 30 seconds or more, down if it was 29 secs or less) in the 11 games he started Von averaged 33.27 minutes per game with an assist average of 1.63 per game. That really doesnt sound like much for a guy who "was pretty good at moving the ball and finding teammates" link
I dun have any problem with him scoring and slashing but at times it was ugly when the lane was more than clogged. When you watched @ Sopcast the senior chinese reporter could pencil a straight line which Wafer would go and he would go and go times and times again. He even did the zig zag rarely.
It sounds like his job as the SHOOTING GUARD....was to...well...SHOOT ! And he did it very well.....in those starts.... Fine, you don't like him, I do.....I like stockpiling assets and I think Von right now is further along than Taylor and Budinger and about the same price. Give me the NBA guy 10 out of 10 times in that type of deal. DD
The anti-Wafers are really embarrassing themselves. A real low point in BBS history (apart from anything YOF-related).
Hmm....well there are also moderate fans who point out conspicuous deficiencies and flaws in his game. We all know what he does best.
so what is it then? Its his job to SHOOT? but then you said he did a darn good job of finding his teammates and moving the ball? So I guess he didnt move the ball around as well then thats a shame because Adelman's offense is all about ball movement and not just shooting/stopping the ball. Wasnt that your biggest issue with Ron and Tracy...that they were ball stoppers (and yes inefficient shooters as well, but they were playmakers) I agree with stockpiling assets but I do not see Wafer as an asset worth having especially given the makeup of the current roster. Of course Von is along further (in some aspects of his game) than Taylor and Budinger...those two are ROOKIES. Had Taylor and Budinger been drafted last year instead of this year and came into training camp fighting for a spot instead of Wafer then they are all in the same boat. Wafer was given his chance primarily due to injuries and he performed and exceeding expectations given what his initial expectations were. Now Taylor and Budinger will get their chance to prove the same thing. Morey hasnt really gone wrong with his draft picks so far, the jury is still out on Dorsey since he was injured the majority of last season but even Joey has improved his game a bit as evidenced by his performance in the summer league. If Morey is confident in his rookies producing then I am going to go with him. Brooks and Landry were questioned and once they got their chance (landry moreso than brooks) their rookie year their proved their worth. Brooks proved his worth last season. Its just a matter of numbers Taylor and Budinger both play the 2/3 spots and there only so many minutes at those positions. If Morey believes that these players can contribute then they will. Given Morey's track record when it comes to the draft I am just surprised that you would dismiss either of the two rookies so easily. I just think its telling that no other teams outside of the clippers and the knicks --widely regarded as two of the worst nba franchises-- are the only teams that have been mentioned in terms of rumors with Von. Morey is letting the market set the value but clearly there arent teams out there that are trying to throw money at Von to lure him away or trying to force Morey's hand and offer him anything. Von isnt a restricted free agent like Landry was last year so other GMs can force Morey's hand and not the other way around, yet none have so far. I dont think Von will be paid more than the min scale by Morey and I believe Morey feels that he may not get more than that anywhere else. Taking slightly above the min scale in LA and NY, well with their taxes and all he may as well just taken the min to stay here in Houston.
A couple of assists a game from the SG is fine by me. Actually, there is a difference, you cease to be a ball stopper when you can actually score the ball at a good efficiency rate....Von's was really good at 44% and 40% from 3pt land. I like Chase, I think Taylor is not all that great....admittadly it is a small sample size, but when I watch Taylor I see a guy that got by a lot weaker athletes in a very small conference, doesn't handle the ball all that well, doesn't move off of it, and is slightly undersized. Personally, I see bust written all over him but he is a 2nd round pick so a very low risk. Von is better than both right now, and is about the same age, so I think they should keep him if they can. We really don't have any clue about who has talked to him, but come on, let's be real, this is a horrible year to be a free agent, where people like Iverson are not getting any real looks either.....at least be fair. Not yet, but most of the smaller deals happen late in the offseason, you know that YY...the big dogs get theirs first then the little puppies fall in line.... Von's will happen....but probably not before September. Great....fine with me, I have no problem with him taking a hardline and taking advantage of a depressed market, that is smart business.... We shall see what happens with Von...... I really don't understand what you have against signing him to a very low deal.....why? Why not stockpile a bunch of players in a down year and let them fight it out for the future spots of contribution. I would much rather have Von than Barry or White or Cook, wouldn't you? DD
No. Guess it won't be so fair at the SG spot. RA has promised Trevor to be a starter and I guess he will have to play some minutes at the SG spot. And I thought the 1-2 punch with Lowry and Brooks worked well too. There are not many options left so Wafer's minutes won't exceed 18 minutes IMO. That's no progress but degradation.
1. Your math is wrong. MLE is about $5.8 million, Anderssen cost $2.3 mil, Taylor cost $725K, and Budinger willl likely cost another $725K. So you really have only about $2 million left. 2. The Rockets are not likely to use the remaining portion of the MLE because, they are already over the tax limit this year and, after signing Budinger, they'll have 16 players under contract (White not guaranteed). The logical thing to do for a significant move is to make a trade, not a $2 million FA signing. Your premise is wrong. The remaining $2 million is not "Wafer replacement fund" because they are not looking for a Wafer replacement with the money. The question really is who fills out the 20 or so minutes a game as a 3rd wing the Wafer fills out 3. Overall, I don't see how your erroneously premised "bet" is more "relevant" than whether Wafer will have at least the same minutes, be at least as productive, for a team that wins more than the depleted Rockets, which was what you originally claimed Wafer would do. But that's fine if you are not confident enough in Von Wafer to put the money down.
I don't see a single Wafer supporter unwilling to discuss his flaws, I am certainly aware of them. I just never understood people who are against signing a guy on the cheap who may develop even more. He is already an effective/productinve NBA player, very young, very explosive, very competitive, and very offensively skilled, why not sign him on the cheap? Makes no sense to me at all...we are stockpiling assets, why not stockpile him...lord knows we needed him last year....something fierce.... Again, we have 3 deadwoods on the roster....White, Barry and Cook......Von can take one of their spots for sure...because Taylor and maybe Budinger will be in the D league all year long. DD
This will not go away, but for some reason people expect more out of von than they do guys like shane. I hate to pull him into it, but think about it, if battierr had half the effeciency of von, there would be no von and probably no trevor on this team. To say that a guy making minimum without flaws is blind especially when you have a leader of your team avg 5ppg on the road. Von isn't the end all be all either, but to say in this market that no one wants him and that's shows what kind of players he is, well its foolish. I mean the knicks aren't going to match anything decent for robinson or lee, yet those guys don't have deals. How come sessions who is a really goode pg not signed? Aren you going to tell me a guy like ridnour can command 6m but sessions can't in a pg starved league.Artest in any other yr would get more than mle as would marvin williams, but that's what they got. Iverson doesn't even have a deal at all, but I guess he can't help a team either. The rockets are going no where and they will go no where faster without wafer. Everyone has their side and their sticking to it and maybe i'm just hopeful that after all these years of looking for a young explosive player that the rockets just don't let him waltz off. Then we can hear how budinger is a terrible defender and how taylor is terrible with a low iq, but that's what it is I guess.
Is it me or did you keep on saying signing him on the cheap. Last time I checked it was Von himself who was dismayed by the fact we drafted two ROOKIES and the 1.8 million offer. He then put out his feelers to lesser teams such as the Clippers and the Knicks who did not see him as a No. 1 priority. Apart from my hunch that he does not intend to stay here what other reasons are there? Everything else fails if one player has turned his back on you. You could say it is not 100 percent sure but it surely looks like it.
