Yet another shooting. This time is at a church. The armed guard there killed the gunman after he killed four. But why should there be a armed guard at the church? Shouldn't Christians be "turn the other cheek"? Shouldn't they use non-violent means to stop this gunman even though sacrificing many of their lives if they are true Christians? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/10/AR2007121001348.html Gunman Planned to Kill More, Officials Say Four Died at Two Locations in Colorado Before Church Guard Shot Assailant By Karl Vick and William Branigin Washington Post Staff Writers Tuesday, December 11, 2007; Page A02 COLORADO SPRINGS, Dec. 10 -- A heavily armed man who killed four young people at a missionary training center and a church Sunday apparently intended to gun down many more victims before he was shot by a church security guard, authorities said Monday. The gunman, identified as Matthew Murray 24, of Englewood, Colo., was carrying an assault rifle, two handguns and as many as 1,000 rounds of ammunition when he shot his way into the huge New Life Church in Colorado Springs and was confronted and shot by Jeanne Assam, a former police officer who was serving as a volunteer security guard, police said. The church, which was riddled by bullets, was closed on Monday. Church staff members and volunteers spent the day working to repair the damage. The church, which was riddled by bullets, was closed on Monday. Church staff members and volunteers spent the day working to repair the damage. (Kevin Moloney - AP) "I saw him coming through the doors, and I took cover, and I waited for him to get closer," Assam told reporters. "I came out of cover, I identified myself and engaged him and took him down," she said. Assam, a member of the New Life Church, said that although she was outgunned and physically weak from three days of fasting, "God was with me. . . . God made me strong." Police said Murray, who died in the shooting, was the son of a Denver neurologist. He had been associated with the missionary training center that was his first target. They said forensic evidence confirmed Monday that he was the previously unidentified gunman who opened fire on young staffers of the Youth With a Mission organization in Arvada, just outside Denver, at about 12:30 a.m. Sunday after apparently being refused permission to stay overnight in a dormitory there. Dressed in dark clothing, Murray drew a handgun and fatally shot staff members Tiffany Johnson, 26, of Minnesota and Philip Crouse, 24, of Alaska, police said. Two other staffers, Dan Griebenow, 24, and Charlie Blanch, 22, were wounded. Youth With a Mission describes itself as the world's largest interdenominational Christian missionary group. Murray, who was home-schooled in a deeply religious Christian household, had been thrown out of Youth With a Mission a few years ago and had been sending the group hate mail, the Associated Press reported, citing court documents. He had no known connection with the New Life Church, its pastor told reporters. After the shootings in Arvada, the gunman fled on foot in the snow. More than 12 hours later, he showed up at the sprawling evangelical church campus in Colorado Springs, about 80 miles to the south. There, he gunned down church members Stephanie Works, 18, and her sister, Rachael Works, 16, in a parking lot. Their father, David Works, 51, was shot in the abdomen and groin and was hospitalized in fair condition, police said. ad_icon Murray fired at others outside, hitting Judy Purcell, 40, before entering the church and shooting Larry Bourbannais, 59, police said. Both were treated and released. About 80 feet down a main hallway, Murray encountered Assam, who fired several rounds at him, Sgt. Jeff Jensen of the Colorado Springs Police Department told a news conference. He said that "she definitely wounded him" but that police have not yet determined whether any of her shots were fatal or "whether there was a self-inflicted gunshot wound during this as well." "I didn't think for a minute to run away," Assam said. "I was given the assignment to end this before it got too much worse." She said the encounter "was scary" but "my hands were not even shaking" as she prayed for help. "I was very focused," she said. "I just knew I was not going to wait for him to do any further damage. I just knew what I had to do." New Life Church senior pastor Brady Boyd and police hailed Assam on Monday as a hero who saved many lives. Other church officials estimated that at the time of the shooting several thousand people were on the campus of the church, which had just concluded its late-morning service. Boyd said Assam is a "highly trained" volunteer with a law enforcement background who also serves as his bodyguard. "There could have been a great loss of life yesterday, and she probably saved over a hundred lives," Boyd said. "He had enough ammunition on him to cause a lot of damage, and she rushed toward the attacker and took him down in the hallway." The church, across Interstate 25 from the U.S. Air Force Academy on the outskirts of Colorado Springs, was closed Monday, its entrances blocked by school buses and church pickups. Inside, volunteers and staff worked to repair the damage. Concerned about a second shooter or booby traps, SWAT teams spent hours searching the campus. The assailant had no connection to the church and "was not known here," the pastor said. "He simply showed up on our property yesterday with a gun and the intention of hurting people, and he did. . . . It was simply a random attack. A senseless, random attack." Boyd told reporters that the earlier shooting at Youth With a Mission put the church on alert. As a result, the church beefed up security, he said. "Because we took extra precautions, we saved a lot of lives yesterday," he said. "Hundreds of lives were saved because of the plan we had in place." The New Life Church was founded in 1984 by Ted Haggard, an evangelical preacher who was fired last year after a male prostitute accused him of paying for sex and using methamphetamine. William Branigin reported from Washington.
So your main problem with this whole story is the fact that the church had a security guard and the people inside weren't willing to sacrifice their lives and the lives of their children to some maniac with a gun in the name of Christianity?
Shouldn't Christians pay more attention to the New Testament? If not, then you are Jews, not Christians
Well, if they really believe in what Jesus said, then that's what they should do. So what do you think Christians should do in these situations if they really Jesus' words?
I think we're reading a different New Testament. I don't believe Jesus would say, "yeah, life isn't really all that precious, so let that guy rip through the church with a gun while doing nothing." These weren't martyrs for the faith, in my view. They were victims. This isn't the early church enduring the tortures of the emperor. Because of my faith, I'm more of a pacifist than many here...including other Christians...but I think arguing against defending children in a church is not lining up with Christ's teachings in any meaningful way.
It seems to me he never resort to any violence as far as New Testament is concerned. Nor did he ever advocate violence as a solution to problems. If you do find a verse that says otherwise, please let me know
I am thinking what Jesus want us to do is let the shooter shoot us while we try to persuade him to put down the gun. Many will die in the process but probably the gunman might eventually put down the gun. So what part in the New Testament that says you should kill the murderer to stop him from further killing? I am interested to know what a Christian should do in situations like these and what the basis for such an action as well.
I think the problem is that the New Testament isn't a how-to manual for every situation we encounter. I think many people view the Bible that way. I do not. I think you'll find Christ-followers all over the place on all sorts of issues. I do not believe God would have you avoid self-defense in a situation like this. And I don't find scripture to suggest unless it's misinterpreted because of a lack of context.
I htink Max's point is that your first aim is to protect other people, if you don't stop the gunman he might wind up killing children or others. Whos to say that everyone in a Church is a Christian?
Maybe this will help, ymc. The "turn the other cheek" verses get made out to mean something they don't mean. I don't believe God encourages you to allow others to humiliate you. That's dehumanizing. We are to look for a third way...in fact, Christianity was sometimes called "The Third Way" in the early church....something between fighting back and letting someone walk all over you. All the time hoping for the redemption of the one who would mistreat you. But I think when you're at the point where someone's holding a gun to your head, you're at a point where self-defense is necessary. I don't believe God is ok with murder. I do believe He's more than ok with preventing it further....but only when it's an imminent threat. This was beyond an imminent threat. http://whatsyourpointcaller.wordpress.com/2007/07/18/rob-bell-peace-brother-part-iii/ Jesus says if someone hits you on the right cheek, turn the other one. Remember that for the Jews, the right hand was the clean hand, used for eating and handshakes. The left hand was used for…..well, not polite stuff anyway. You’d want to wash your hand. So the left hand was unclean. So you would only strike someone with your right hand, as otherwise you would be unclean. You had two options - a right hand fist to the right cheek (hitting with a fist was indicating that person was your equal - remember it was all about relative status) or secondly, to slap - to strike an unequal, with the back of your right hand; this would be done only to a slave, a minion, a soldier below you, to someone less human than you. You can’t hit the right cheek with the right fist, so must have been a slap, must have been as if to a slave. So when you turn the cheek, you now would be hitting with the fist, treating the person as an equal. Simple way of turning things upside down. So moved from unequal to equal. Takes away power, co-ercion. Treats me as equal, validates me. If someone takes your coat, then give your shirt also. Remember that the Jews would have had 2 layers - a shirt, then a coat. So if someone sues you and takes your coat (what if you have only that left, 80-90% tax rates at the time - Jews had been conquered, there was a big army, which was in need of high revenues, so there was a high tax on people conquered - e.g. census at Christmas for purpose of counting people). People were losing family lands. People oppressed, people who are poor, people having to get hired out hourly, people hired to work on their own land - shame, humiliation, guilt. All you have left is your coat. You are poor. Jesus says to give to them your shirt also. Why? Because viewing nakedness of another is shameful for Jewish, on person who viewed it. Crippling shame. Again, this turns things upside down. The master would then say “stop doing that”, put your clothes back on. Oppressed person is now acting, the master begging him to stop. A practical way to deal with the situation. Genius is that the aggressor may change his heart and give the coat back Jesus says if demanded to walk 1 mile, then go another one. Romans mastered the place, these are the people who invented crucifixion. These were not nice conquerors. Roman soldiers could demand that you walked with them, to carry their pack - even if on Sabbath, you had no choice, even if it meant being apart from your family, treats you like an animal. BUT Roman military rules restricted this to 1 mile per person. So if you then walked another mile, the Romans had to beg you to stop - otherwise they would be in trouble with the military commanders. Romans then begged you to stop. Roman doesn’t want to be caught punishing this person. Fearless. Go the 2nd mile. Put the Roman in an awkward situation. Ask him to do something. The world we live in suffers from lack of imagination. When we suffer wrong there are 2 approaches we usually take: - do nothing. Pacifism. Turn the other cheek. Take it. God loves you. Jesus gave my spine to someone else. Not what Jesus is advocating. - strike back. Pick up the sword and swing. Corresponding level of aggression. “Let me tell you about those gossips so you can pray better for them” etc. At that moment you have just lost. Jesus is giving a 3rd way. Not passivity. 3rd way theology. Jesus pioneered non-violence. Gives us imagination
Interestingly, now it is confirmed that the gunman killed himself.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071211/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings Police: Church gunman killed himself By JUDITH KOHLER, Associated Press Writer 18 minutes ago COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The man who killed four people at a church and missionary training center was killed by a bullet he fired himself, though he was hit by shots from a church security officer, police said Tuesday. ADVERTISEMENT Matthew Murray, 24, was struck multiple times by a security officer at New Life Church Sunday, but his death was ruled a suicide, the El Paso County Coroner's Office concluded after an autopsy. Volunteer security guard Jeanne Assam shot Murray after he entered the church. Though investigators had earlier suggested he killed himself, they credited Assam's bravery with averting a greater tragedy. Assam, a 42-year-old former Minneapolis police officer, said her faith allowed her to remain steady under pressure. "It seemed like it was me, the gunman and God," she said, her hands trembling as she recounted the shooting during a news conference Monday. The first attack Sunday took place at Youth With a Mission, a training center for missionaries in the Denver suburb of Arvada; the other occurred about 12 hours later at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. Officials said revenge was one apparent motive for the attacks. Police said Murray had sent hate mail to the Youth With a Mission center in the last few weeks after being removed from the program years ago. In a statement, the training center said health problems kept Murray from finishing the program, but elaborated little. Murray did not complete the lecture phase or a field assignment as part of a 12-week program, Youth With a Mission said. Authorities also believe Murray authored an anti-Christian diatribe online that closely repeated a rant by one of the Columbine killers, a newspaper reported Tuesday. The most recent post to the site, a forum for people who have left evangelical religious groups, was Sunday morning in the hours between his attacks in Arvada and Colorado Springs, according to KUSA-TV in Denver, which first reported on the writings. "You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote, according to the station, which did not identify the site. "All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world." The language in the post is almost identical to the text of a manifesto written by Eric Harris, one of the teens who carried out the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School. The online posts, under the pen name "nghtmrchld26," spanned several weeks, and in an earlier one, Murray appeared to reject offers of psychological help. "I've already been working with counselors. I have a point to make with all this talk about psychologists and counselors `helping people with their pain,'" he wrote, according to KUSA. The station said Murray's posts were removed from the site after Sunday's killings, and that authorities were aware of them and investigating. Police in Colorado Springs and Arvada would not comment on the writings. In a search warrant affidavit, investigators said Murray attended a home-based computer school and worked at his computer for three to five hours a day for the past two years. Police said Murray's only previous brush with the law was a traffic ticket earlier this year. His relatives said they were grief-stricken and baffled. "We cannot understand why this has happened. We ask for prayer for the victims and their families during this time of grief," said Phil Abeyta, Murray's uncle, who read a statement from the family Monday. Also Tuesday, Minneapolis police Sgt. Jesse Garcia said Assam was fired from the Minneapolis force in 1997 for lying during an internal investigation. Sgt. John Delmonico, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, said police were investigating a complaint that Assam swore at a bus driver while she was handling an incident on a city bus.
I think violent shootings are a bigger problem than terrorist attacks. We need to do something about this or watch people get slaughtered by the dozens. Homegrown terrorism has a new meaning.
Yeah I remember this one too. But then you can argue that because those acts are blasphemy of God, so even Jesus couldn't tolerate that. Even so He was not that violent in that situation. Do you know any incidents that He acted violently that doesn't involve God? Thanks
Interesting point of view. Never heard of that. I guess my Bible teachers were not familiar with the Jewish culture. I would do more research about this. Thanks for letting me know. But I don't think taking the Pacifism route is dehumanizing. If the offender really do strike the other cheek, he is also shaming himself in many cultures. That's how non-violence worked for Gandhi and the like.
