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Four drone operators have turned into whistleblowers, calling for an immediate end to the drone war

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Northside Storm, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. AroundTheWorld

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    I agree that it is disingenuous and wrong to keep pouring oil money into horrible regimes.
     
  2. Northside Storm

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    This particular discussion is moot for the topic at hand because current US drone policy does not send armed drones to Syria. Everything we're talking about doesn't really come to play with targeting ISIS leaders, who can still die because of special forces or airstrikes when absolutely needed (see: Jihadi John).

    Drones make it absurdly easier to be constantly killing people rather than being very careful about avoiding civilian deaths, especially with the way the drone program is currently set up. At least targeted airstrikes have some rules of engagement, oversight, and transparancy.

    But to indulge on a point I want to make clear, I absolutely agree with you that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is an absolutely terrible person, I just think he should have to watch his ideology die around him, powerless and alone, in a cell. I personally think that's a greater penalty than death. I can understand if you disagree, but my personal take on this is that he wants/craves death so why give it to him? Give him and all theocrats a view of their ideas falling apart and a better world built despite them.

    It's not a very realistic situation, but if we're talking hypotheticals, I don't think you can end the cycle by constantly killing theocrats, especially the ones who aren't funding the violence in the first place. You have to defeat the theocrats ideologically and financially. That can't happen with just targeted airstrikes and pervasive drone programs.
     
    #42 Northside Storm, Nov 21, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
  3. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    That requires taking a stand on Saudi Arabia, beginning with ending arms sales. To my knowledge, no one has done that besides the Swedes. Maybe Trudeau II will surprise us.
     
  4. Northside Storm

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    Rome wasn't built in a day.

    (based on his comments on the current Saudi arms deal, I highly doubt it. I didn't vote for him. If he surprises you, it'll be an equally pleasant surprise for me.)
     
  5. Liberon

    Liberon Rookie

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    The puppet Obama has his instructions... They are writing a letter to the wrong person.
     
  6. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. JeffB

    JeffB Member

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    Let's not pretend this is all on Obama. He is currently at the helm and we should point the finger at him. However, no matter who is leading the pack, the American war machine will find on. We are currently dealing with the quagmire created by the Iraq invasion and there is absolutely no smooth way out of it without just ceding defeat/control of the region to whatever group.

    It all makes for fun D&D cheerleader games, but really, this is all jacked up. And the constant wars just further feed the machine. The machine is ahead of Obama on this. Eisenhower warned us.
     
  8. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    Probably a rhetorical mistake to start with the execution of al-Awlaki. The drone operators are talking about their interpretation of the Constitution there, an area in which they are my peer. I don't agree with how they understand the Constitution. But, all the stuff they have to say about the risk of civilian deaths and the dehumanization of drone warfare is something they'd know a lot about, and I'm very concerned about that. I don't think we should be using weaponized drones at all. Probably, that should be added to the Geneva Conventions. Even without the drones though, our ability to hit someone with a missile from a battleship a few miles offshore bears the same problems -- lack of precision, dehumanization, and easy oppression. As a rule of thumb, I don't think anyone should be killing others without standing in harm's way themselves, at least when fighting a weaker enemy. Would the US citizen approve of killing all these people in Syria, Iraq, and Yemen if it meant sending our sons over there with AR15s? It's too easy to discount the lives of others when we're not at risk ourselves. I generally like Obama as a president, but I'm not too pleased with his leadership here.
     
  9. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    Well at least these quagmires are a great way to transfer trillions (!) of taxpayer dollars to the military industrial complex.

    They should make it like election contributions on the tax forms: "Check this box if you want any of your tax dollars to be spent on warfighting."

    Ironic that the people who hate "big government" want to give the big government trillions of dollars to buy weapons. Seems like the very thing they should fear most.
     
  10. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    Why should the U.S. military go the step to put people in harm's way? American troops in Iraq were subject to ambushes while on patrols or responding to orders. If the job of killing these people can be done with a drone campaign then I don't see what benefit there is to putting people in a battle zone.
     
  11. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    If its not so important to kill someone that you'd risk you own soldiers to accomplish it, then maybe you shouldn't be killing those people in the first place. Obviously, it's a bit irrational to let someone shoot at you if you don't have to, but resolving the disconnect with drones causes all the problems the operators talk about -- collateral damage, disregard for human life, passive acceptance by the American public, and growing resentment and radicalization of targeted populations.
     
  12. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    To address your fair fight pleading: should police give up the use of guns to make their job more fair? A drone is a tool much like a gun. The U.S. works with its allies - which includes what we may refer to as "spies" to feed them information. Therefore, if the drone strikes are tactfully accurate, then any resulting collateral damage must be due to intelligence from those on the ground.

    I think it is also worth mentioning that U.S. soldiers are not the only victims in the ambushes against them. I would think that by putting soldiers on the ground there is actually a greater chance of there being collateral damage. Do these people have any regard for who their IED's hit? Who their bullets hit? And who knows who may be hit by American fire in such a situation.

    With effective ground intelligence (local spies and such), the drone program can be a big success. Although that may leave some locals in a position to defend against accusations of their involvement.
     
    #52 Cohete Rojo, Nov 23, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
  13. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    Police don't roll up on people and start firing machine guns or rockets, do they? Maybe I'm wrong.
     
  14. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Too little, too late.

    A bunch of Belgian guys just renewed the drone war for another 5 years last week.
     
  15. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Alfred Nobel invented dynamite so it makes sense.
     

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