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Four charged over JFK 'bomb plot'

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Ubiquitin, Jun 2, 2007.

  1. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    I think that you are failing to consider one thing. I am an American who lives in America. My travels have not included the Middle East. You think some opinion can change the Arab street? You think some poll accurately represents the Arab street? You think Muslims are only Arab? Your short sight has caused you to miss the point. How many Muslims have you met that have told you they believe 9/11 was good, or that murder is acceptable?
     
  2. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    I know you are American. Duh! Polls aren't gospil, but they certainly are revealing.

    I mentioned countries like Morroco and Indonesia - so clearly I know that not all Muslims are Arabs and not all Arabs are Muslims (Israelis for example).

    And I never said Muslims supported 9/11 - but a lot of them supported it. What's worse, quite a few, if not a majority, have felt that the Mossad was involved in 9/11 and that there is no way Bin Laden could have done it. And it's this sort of disbelief and denial which bothers me.

    Your post that the arrest of these Muslims is propaganda is what makes me angry. Because you know what - it's not helpful. it's this reaction that accomplishes nothing. All it does it make people think that Muslims can't admit there are fanatics hijacking their religion. So to me, you're allowing it to happen.

    No one is condemning the religion here - we're just saying Muslims could do a lot more to help their own cause by taking a more vocal and active role in what's happening.
     
  3. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    Come on, that's holding people accountable for something they don't control. You're Indian (and I'll assume hindu) so I'll assume that you should be condemning the attacks and subsequent destruction of a major mosque in Ayodhya, or the various violent attacks on Muslims in my parents' home town of Hyderabad (as well as in Gujarat)

    Oh and you probably should be condemning the fanatical hindu nationalists that go ape**** every now and then in Kashmir as well.

    Look, you're making this sound like those Anti-Communist loyalty oaths that were forced on people during the Cold War or the loyalty oaths pushed on the Japanese during WWII. That's stupid and senseless and it breeds ignorance and stereotypes regarding Muslims. This type of thinking is what paved the way towards internment camps during WWII and has created a level of aloofness towards Guantanamo detention camps since Muslims, after all, aren't doing enough to condemn fundamentalists so we have to take it into our own hands.

    This is exactly what happened in WWII. The US Government basically said that Japanese Americans weren't doing enough to distance themselves from the Japanese government so we needed to do something instead. So we unlawfully detained an entire segment of people and locked them up and then put the onus on them rather than holding our government accountable for this action. The Supreme Court went further and legitimized this legally sanctioned racism by upholding these types of detentions.

    Being Muslim doesn't mean a damn thing other than you loosely identify with a group of people across the globe. The Soviets committed attrocities that in many cases were unparalleled and we came up with bull**** loyalty oaths as a way to somehow test one's belief system and guess what. That stuff led to the Red Scare and McCarthyism.

    This type of stuff just self-perpetuates and leads to all sorts of problems so while I think its a problem at times that parts of the Muslim community don't do enough to fight extremism, I don't believe you can pin this on individuals and scapegoat the entire Muslim community as one group. You can't call out Azadre because some jackasses across the globe are a bunch of brutal terrorists.
     
  4. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    No one is demanding an oath or supporting detentions. Read what I am writing. You're jumping to a strange conclusion.

    If Indians were constantly behind a certain type of crime - let's say shooting up banks or whatever. Then what would I do? I certainly would cry, "oh the media is propaganda, oh it's all the jews fault, oh it's bush's fault!!!". No, I'd be honest and say, wow, there's something really messed up about these people and it probably traces back to wherever in India they are coming from.

    Every religion has it's fanatics...and Hindu fanatics are nothing short of detestable disturbed and intolerant thinking. However; destroying a temple is one thing - plotting to blow up an airport and spread widespread destruction and chaos is completely another! You don't have hindu's bombing countries all over the world man. you don't see hindu's chanting "death to america" or supporting bin laden. You don't have to worry about Hindu terrorist cells.

    If someone is a Muslim, and they are upset with the media protrayel of Muslims because of what fanatics are doing, then if they want to change that, then they can do something about it. I'm sick and tired of the refrains from so many Muslims, "It's not our fault, you deal with it, and if you didn't invade Iraq and support israel, people wouldn't be trying to kill you".

    That's fine, Muslims can think that way but then Americans will judge them as being ok with terrorism. And why shouldn't they?
     
  5. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    You can't have it both ways though. Azadre started this thread calling out the US media for reporting Muslim extremists were conspiring to kill thousands of Americans.
     
  6. ChrisBosh

    ChrisBosh Member

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    NewYorker you tend to post for the sake of creating an argument, so I guess I'll go for the bait this time around.... :D




    What do you know what Muslims are doing to counterbalance the extremists? Are you out there in the Muslim community finding out... do you know what Muslim countries have done to try to counter this threat of extremism? Or is it that the media doesn't exactly find it "news worthy" to report what steps are being taken by Muslims to fight extremism and thus its leading individuals like yourself into making uninformed accusations?

    I admit that Muslims tend to blame the West a lot, but there is some truth to it, people aren’t exactly idiots. The U.S has poked into Middle Eastern affairs for a very long time, the Iraq war seemed to just reinforce this accusation. It's basically caused for trust issues, if an administration like GWB's can get a nation to go into war with a lie, how can you trust an administration as such? When you lie about one thing it becomes harder to believe the person the next time around. That's why when you see a story about terrorists being arrested it makes you wonder? Are they telling the truth this time around? Basically you've got to differentiate between the two issues.

    Yes there is extremism among Muslims, and yes the U.S administration is shady. You get the picture?

    Also the media tends to make the problem bigger than it really is, they want the good guy, bad guy storyline. When in reality things aren’t so black and white.
     
  7. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    No he was calling them out for jumping to that conclusion every time anything happens. There have been several "incidents" that have been proclaimed as victories for our intelligence and law enforcement in fighting terrorism when in reality we later find out that the government got its facts wrong.

    He didn't call them out for reporting that Muslim extremists are threatening to kill Americans, he called them out for rushing to that conclusion before any facts are out. Now its very possible that Muslim extremists are behind this but there have been enough mistakes in reporting to where a little patience and journalistic responsibility would be wise in situations like this.
     
  8. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    Every time what happens?
     
  9. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    I guess I should make pretty pictures using stick figures next time.

    When I posted the story, I posted it because it's a current event. I mentioned that the way the media was portraying it as a global attack was "almost propaganda like". That means, the story is not being reported because some nuts are getting in bed with an FBI agent telling them about their desires to destroy JFK. Instead, the story is to serve a "friendly reminder" that Islamism is still the biggest threat to the American existance: a chord being played by Neoconservatives since 9/11/01.
     
  10. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    Everytime a suspect who is Muslim is taken into custody...
     
  11. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Contributing Member

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    Just wondering, it's not the first time you've made a "Muslims" vs. "Americans" distinction, so are you under the impression that Islam is a nation-state? And are you aware that neither is 'exclusive' to the other?

    Good day...
     
  12. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    I think someone needs to make stick figures of Muslims blowing up ****. Maybe you will get it.

    Every time what? A Muslim taken into custody for plotting to kill thousands is called a "Muslim taken into custody for plotting to kill thousands"? That is outrageous.

    I just saw the news here and on the internet. I don't really watch that much tv. I just saw the story for what it is. What it is, is ****ed up. I think you need worry more about Muslims extremists wanting to kill thousands of people more than the way the media handles reporting it.
     
  13. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    I don't know about you, but I actually listen to the follow ups. As it turns out, a lot of these stories involving "suspects" turn out to be nothing at all. See the Miami "cell".
     
  14. Mr. Brightside

    Mr. Brightside Contributing Member

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    John Stossel speaks the truth about the realities of dying in a terrorist attack. I guess most of you fear mongers should also be afraid of random acts of lightning strikes also.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/terror_porn.html

     
  15. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    You're missing his entire point. No one's denying that terrorists exist or that there are fundamentalists who want to attack America and American interests.

    The problem is that whenever a bomb plot is stopped, the media seems to always connect it to terrorism, the moment word of the plot comes out. And what's worse is that in several cases, it came out that the plot had nothing to do with Islamic fundamentalists. In other words, the media created fear when in reality it was unjustified.

    I heard a talk with Bob Woodward a couple of years ago and he explained this problem very well. The advent of the internet, the 24 hour news networks, etc.. have created larger pressures to be the first to come out with news and the first to break the story. As a result, journalists aren't doing their due diligence when it comes to verifying stories and coming up with substantive evidence to back a claim in a story. This rush to judgement only serves to discredit the media further and bring up allegations like Azadre brought up about propoganda. Part of our relationship with the media is trusting what they tell us and when they jump the gun repeatedly, it makes people skeptical.

    It's not about being or not being worried about terrorists. It's about keeping your head on when discussing the issue because there's a tendancy to connect everything with Islamic terrorists in the same way that during the middle of the Cold War, everything got connected to communism despite a lack of evidence in many of those cases.

    We need to be rational, and diligent when reporting the news. That's all.
     
  16. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    This one is a little different. They claim to have conducted surveillance on giant jet fuel tanks at JFK and the pipeline there. The FBI did say that it never got past the planning stages and it posed no threat to air safety or the public. That's a story worth reporting.

    Look, I know "The War on Terror" can be overblown. I don't even really know what it is. I do not live my life in fear but people talking about doing this type of thing should not be taken lightly. The threats are real. We have seen that and we don't want to see it again.

    I guess the dude working at Kinko's and making copies of guys shooting guns while yelling "Allah Akbar" is just a fear monger too.

    I am kind of afraid of lighting. I get out of the pool immediately. I was a lifeguard and have seen footage of dead swimmers blown of the pool from lightning strikes. I always wear my seatbelt too. Car accidents scare me.
     
  17. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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  19. Nice Rollin

    Nice Rollin Contributing Member

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    i mean profiling as far as letting people into this country. im brown too. i dont care if i get stopped at the airport. i want them to stop me...

    i know thats not what the debate is about, but it seems thats the only way to stop this crap from happening
     
  20. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    You're reading something that really isn't there. I'm speaking of Muslims who act a particular way and of those Americans who form a certain point of view. I just don't qualify it each time because it would make my already wordy posts that much longer.
     

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