Good post. Thanks for the clarification. I do not think this has happened before, but you and I could be roughly in agreement on this issue. Go figure.
I an going to stand by the fact t hat him being mentally unstable is the main contributing factor. If 9/11 never happened, we wouldn't be having this argument, but sadly, it has. Still, since then, one muslim psychiatrist in the military has done this in the 8 years. Barring muslims from the military would create a MASSIVE backlash. Extremist christian groups, extremist muslims, etc.. its all the same. Our founding fathers were incredibly sage in the fact they excluded religon from government. God help us if this Nutjob group ever had any say, actually if any Right Wing nutjob were to take office, you would see it. Repercussions in American society would be immense, with Muslims stigmatized and harassed throughout the nation. A movement would arise to ban the possession of firearms by Muslims (ironically pushed by the same Conservatives who go to the mat against any and all regulation of firearms). It would be a civil liberties catastrophe, de facto at least, perhaps even de jure. Some non-military American Muslims might "snap" due to this increased harassment and attack their fellow citizens. "In this attempt to mitigate the threat from a scattered few Muslims in the military, 99.999?% of American Muslims would suffer grave injustice. What, really, would the NMMA ban accomplish? Former military Muslims consciously planning to attack US military forces would surely shift their focus to a mass-casualty civilian attack, via a home made bomb or illegally obtained handguns (assuming some law arose against Muslim gun ownership), or even by driving at high speed into a crowd. Military-serving Muslims who might have been harassed into a "snap" attack against their comrades are just as likely to be so harassed by civilians in the climate of fear and hate generated by legalized discrimination. By enacting NMMA, it turns out we have solved nothing, and caused much harm. We have simply exchanged military targets for civilian targets, have we not? The casualties of Ft. Hood did their duty as our shield and protectors - as has happened before and may sadly happen again despite all appropriate vigilance. But for the Ft. Hood soldiers, it would have been us - assuming the Ft. Hood shooter was a conscious IPR enemy, and not simply insane. We would dishonor the dead if we responded by posthumously denying them their noble defense of the rest of us, dishonor them if we assaulted our Constitution and its ideals they swore to uphold."
no question it's an extreme view. and i'm not suggesting it's TRUE islam. i've read through about 3/4ths of the Koran, and I can say with certainty they're certainly interpreting it differnet than I read it. but it's their reading that forms the religion of the jackholes who pull this stuff. newsflash: there is a segment who claim Islam who are all about violence. stop me if you've heard that before. and there are people who claim Christianity who believe in all sorts of twisted, warped crap that pisses me off....but it's still their religion. it's their view of God and humanity. and it's, at least in part, the motivation for a whole lot of crap.
my take?? i didn't write the ABC story that said the CIA was aware he was trying to contact Al Qaeda...or trying to contact a militant iman in Yemen...or yelling Allah Ackbar as he fired on the crowd...or throwing on full religious garb the morning of the shooting...or giving away Korans in his apartment complex that morning either. THE FBI WAS INVESTIGATING THIS GUY'S RELATIONSHIP TO MILITANT ISLAM LONG BEFORE THIS EVER HAPPENED. how is this my take?? look, the overwhelming evidence here is that religion did play a part...even if it was through a warped mind. i'd say that interpretation of the Koran is pretty flippin warped, too. i'd tell you the radical cleric is a nutjob, too. again...the 9/11 crowd hit up strip clubs too...are we now suggesting that wasn't motivated by their religion because they hit up a strip club, hung out with prostitutes and drank in advance of it? really? in all honesty, for all the hostility for religion, generally on this board, i'm SHOCKED that people are arguing to the contrary.
I think you are conflating a couple of issues here to get in a dig at political correctness. The evidence so far that has come out about what might've contributed to Hasan's rage was that he was bullied by other's in the army about being a Muslim. Apparently such things happen routinely in the military and I would hardly call that a culture of political correctness. If anything a culture of political correctness might've have helped the situation if it prevented, or limited such things. You seem to be arguing that political correctness prevented the army from just discharging him because he is a Muslim. My understanding is that the military can't do that and anyway Muslim's have served in the US military for a very long time with no more problems than any other groups. If removing a culture of political correctness is preventing the military from discharging Muslims that seems a solution addressing a practically non-existant problem. Consider though that fratricide isn't a completely uncommon occurance in the US military, especially during wartime, and going back to the Revolutionary war there have been incidents of soldiers of all sorts who have killed fellow soldiers deliberately. While this case involves a Muslim soldier there isn't solid evidence yet that Muslim soldiers represent a fifth column in US ranks only that even Muslim soldiers can go crazy. Finally if what the evidence about Hasan's actions are true you don't need to discharge him on politically incorrect grounds as even without that there is a strong evidence that he is a threat. If the evidence is true that he tried to contact Al Qaeda right there would be grounds to discharge him having nothing to do with political correctness as it would be attempted treason.
It appears that Hasan himself had thought of the potential of becoming a threat to the US military. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33819877/ns/us_news-washington_post Fort Hood suspect warned of threats in ranks Hasan said Muslim troops should be released as conscientious objectors The Army psychiatrist believed to have killed 13 people at Fort Hood warned a roomful of senior Army physicians a year and a half ago that to avoid "adverse events," the military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors instead of fighting in wars against other Muslims. As a senior-year psychiatric resident at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, Maj. Nidal M. Hasan was supposed to make a presentation on a medical topic of his choosing as a culminating exercise of the residency program. Instead, in late June 2007, he stood before his supervisors and about 25 other mental health staff members and lectured on Islam, suicide bombers and threats the military could encounter from Muslims conflicted about fighting in the Muslim countries of Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a copy of the presentation obtained by The Washington Post. "It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims," he said in the presentation. "It was really strange," said one staff member who attended the presentation and spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the investigation of Hasan. "The senior doctors looked really upset" at the end. These medical presentations occurred each Wednesday afternoon, and other students had lectured on new medications and treatment of specific mental illnesses. An Army spokesman said Monday night he was unaware of the presentation, and a Walter Reed spokesman declined to comment. It is unclear whether anyone in attendance reported the briefing to counterintelligence or law enforcement authorities whose job it is to identify threats from within the military ranks. Hasan spent six years at Walter Reed as an intern, resident and fellow beginning in 2003. He was transferred to Fort Hood as a practicing psychiatrist in July and was set to leave soon for Afghanistan. According to a relative, he had asked not to be deployed. It is not known whether he ever sought conscientious-objector status. Maj. Gen. Gina S. Farrisee, the Army's personnel chief, said in an interview Monday that because of the investigation, she and other Army officials could not discuss whether Hasan had officially asked to quit the service or not to be deployed. However, she and another Army official said it would be highly unusual for officers with Hasan's rank and medical training to be allowed to resign, given their service obligation. 'Potential implications' Investigators are examining Hasan's religious beliefs, whether he harbored extremist views, and whether he was in contact with others who may have encouraged violence against U.S. troops. The title of Hasan's PowerPoint presentation was "The Koranic World View As It Relates to Muslims in the U.S. Military." It consisted of 50 slides. In one slide, Hasan described the presentation's objectives as identifying "what the Koran inculcates in the minds of Muslims and the potential implications this may have for the U.S. military." He also sought to "describe the nature of the religious conflicts that Muslims" who serve in the U.S. military may have and to persuade the Army to identify these individuals. Other slides delved into the history of Islam, its tenets, statistics about the number of Muslims in the military, and explanations of "offensive jihad," or holy war. Another slide suggested ways to draw out Muslim troops: "It must be hard for you to balance Islamic beliefs that might be conflicting with current war; feelings of guilt; Is it what you expected." Hasan's presentation lasted about an hour. It is unclear whether he read out loud every point on each slide. If typical procedures were followed, his adviser would have supervised the development of his project, said people familiar with the practice. The final three slides indicate that Hasan referred to Osama bin Laden, the Taliban, suicide bombers and Iran. Under a slide titled "Comments," he wrote: "If Muslim groups can convince Muslims that they are fighting for God against injustices of the 'infidels'; ie: enemies of Islam, then Muslims can become a potent adversary ie: suicide bombing, etc." [sic] The last bullet point on that page reads simply: "We love death more then [sic] you love life!" Under the "Conclusions" page, Hasan wrote that "Fighting to establish an Islamic State to please God, even by force, is condoned by the Islam," and that "Muslim Soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk to hurting/killing believers unjustly — will vary!" The final page, labeled "Recommendation," contained only one suggestion: "Department of Defense should allow Muslims [sic] Soldiers the option of being released as 'Conscientious objectors' to increase troop morale and decrease adverse events." Staff writer Ann Scott Tyson contributed to this report.
agree. it looks like they use religion as an excuse/justification for their actions because it draws broad global support for their political / nationalistic movement.
This story gets weirder and weirder. He's essentially telling them, as a Muslim, that it's becoming impossible to serve in the military if you're Muslim...and that it could lead to violence. The doctors at the presentation are uncomfortable with it. He's contacting clerics connected to al Qaeda electronically, and is under FBI investigation for months. He's telling neighbors, friends and family that as a Muslim he is seriously conflicted about being deployed to be part of an operation fighting other Muslims. And no one connects any of these dots anywhere.
as he says in his presentation, you can not separate politics and islam. islam is meant to be a political force. it was in its origins. there are islamic theocracies and republics that dot the middle east. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/09/AR2009110903618.html?hpid=topnews Under the "Conclusions" page, Hasan wrote that "Fighting to establish an Islamic State to please God, even by force, is condoned by the Islam," and that "Muslim Soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk to hurting/killing believers unjustly -- will vary!"
i'm aware there are different interpretations of Islam. that's HIS religion...he described it in his own words. as it is the religion of many others. with a whole set of beliefs. there's a large circle with the word Islam in the middle....a whole lot of people fit in that circle. if you want to be really super duper broad, i fit in that circle, as there are some beliefs i share with Muslims about God. that there is one God...that he is/was a Creator...etc. there are smaller subsets that believe things that some or even most of the others don't believe in. but make no mistake...just as happened during the Crusades...there is a segment that BELIEVES that God calls for violence. that BELIEVES they are fulfilling a duty to God by carrying that out. are we honestly arguing this isn't so?
Again, I don't think his interpretation can be trusted. He is just using Islam to get support for his cause. He goes to strip bars and drinks alcohol.
I don't think it can be trusted either, if you're talking about saying it's the "will of God." Of course I don't agree with that. But he does...and if you've been following along, you'll know that so do a lot of jokers. There are Christians who think it's God's desire that they protest the funerals of homosexuals and shoot abortion doctors. I don't trust their interpretation of the Bible, either. Again...the 9/11 boys thought it was totally sweet to hit up strip bars and drink alcohol. I don't think any of us would suggest that religion wasn't part of their motivation. Just because one is religious doesn't mean one isn't tempted....and truthfully, if it's your earnest belief that martyrdom buys you a one-way ticket to Paradise, anyway, who the hell cares if you hit up a strip club on the way out, right? Honestly, I can't believe this is even an argument. Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding you.
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