Former Rocket Scottie Pippen 3rd Best Small Forward of All Time?

from Crash:

LOL. I'm not going to lie to you either, I didn't know the Big 'O' played the 3 until I was corrected. Hondo, West, kind of the same thing - they always had the ball in their hands. I'm pretty sure RudyT was the first 3 that I knew was a 3.

 

He improved them by 10 wins? It wasn't the point for them to win right away. They were REBUILDING. Of course if you trade your young talent for old fogeys you'll win more now. No, you calling me crazy doesn't make it so. You think publicly calling out teammates for being selfish when you're the leading shot-taker is a good thing? You think going back on your word in multiple ways is a good thing? You think holding up a team bus in order to settle a petty dispute that you started with a younger player is a good thing? Jordan did ALL those things. He was a cancer in Washington. Period.

I didn't make an excuse for Pippen. You could try actually reading my post. Here it is again: "And when did Pippen quit on his team, aside from that one incident? That was bad. It was prideful. It was arrogant. But it was one incident." You'll notice that I DID say it was terrible what he did. But realize that you seem to be resting your ENTIRE argument about a player's WHOLE CAREER on ONE game. Not even one game. One play. So ONE mistake a guy made in a span of five minutes over a 17 YEAR career singlehandedly makes him "not great?" Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Oh, and Russell was the greatest defender of all time.

 

When North Carolina won the championship, under Worthy's leadership.

 

I'm not making excuses. I'm asking how 5 minutes damns an entire, brilliant 17-year career, and you're not responding. You're the one making excuses for Jordan. Actually, scratch that. You're either not responding to it or denying it with no evidence.

A player is in his prime at age 34?

On defense only, yes of course, I'm ecstatic about that. But Hakeem kills Russell on O, obviously.

 

Oh, and I wish I knew the height of the average player when Russell was playing. No disrespect to Russell, but Dream was the real deal, not the much taller than average center in a league of 8 (+/-) teams.

 

from Drexlerfan:

In his day. His fascination with Dream was there from day one, and I for one wonder if Russell's intellect could have equated with Dream's athleticism. It's hard to say, but if you look at the old footage Russell was a freak of nature too. How his athletecism didn't translate into offense I can only explain by saying that when you have the best team you can pretty much do whatever it is you do best.

But Drexlerfan, where are you here? Clyde was a 3 even though he played the 2 most of the time in the NBA. Don't you have even a slight problem with this list? Jordan and Clyde would have been a much nastier duo than Pip and MJ.

 

I can tell you that. Quoted from post #124 in this thread: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=97308&page=5&pp=30

As for oldschool players being "physically inferior," let's look at the centers for the other 9 teams in the league in 1967, when Wilt won a championship with Philly: Bill Russell (6'9), Walter Wesley (6'11), Walt Bellamy (6'11), Leroy Ellis (6'10), Nate Thurmond (6'11), Zelmo Beaty (6'9), Darrall Imhoff (6'10), Erwin Mueller (6'8), Reggie Harding (7'0). That averages out to a touch over 6'10.

Of course, this was for a Wilt argument, so you'd have to replace Russell, who was 6'9, with Wilt's 7'1. So Russell was 6'9, and the average player he guarded was a touch short of 6'11. What's your point?

 

I don't know what you mean about February contests. I'm talking about the Finals against Dr. J/Moses Malone Sixers, the Bird/McHale/Parrish Celtics, the Isiah/Dumars Pistons. Kareem faced all-time stiff competition in the finals for his rings. Jordan faced all time mediocre finals teams. Not a one of them went on to do squat. In fact, until the Celtics got old and the Pistons blew up their roster (after ring #2), Jordan and the Bulls couldn't even get out of their conference.

 

Oh, I would think Clyde would be way up there if he was included, yes. But he played 2-guard his entire Portland career, and only played significant time at 3 when in Houston. So I don't count him in a discussion of greatest small forwards. I think that's probably what this guy was thinking too.

I mean, hey, Oscar might be top 10 in 3 positions... but I only include him in the point guard discussion, because that's mostly what he played. Same idea.

 

from Drexlerfan:

Yeah. I thought about Magic immediately when I saw Bird's name on top of the list. I Mean Magic may be just a top 5 pg who happened to win his first title playing the 5 while Kareem was injured.

These lists are crazy, but I wish these writers would throw in a few sentences to let people know what criteria they are following. Not mentioning Oscar Robertson is criminal.

 

Yes Pippen did us wrong (even though Rudy used him wrong), but to call him overrated is silly. He is arguably one of the best defensive players EVER. No one else on that list comes close to him defensively. He could run the offense for you. Everyone on that list couldn't do that. The only area that you could say he significantly trails others on that list is by putting the ball in the hole. Even then, he was still around 18-20 points a game and shooting a high percentage until he got to Houston (yes, this is even when MJ was gone).

Yes, Scottie wasn't the best player on his team for a long time. But when he was, he led the Bulls (who just lost the best SG ever arguably and gained nothing) to 55 wins. He had a season that the others who were the "best players" would deem worthy (Barry, DR J, Baylor, Nique). So what, he didn't win a ring that year. Baylor and Nique are ringless. How many times did DR J blow it on talented teams before winning in 83?

To say he is overrated is to diss him like most diss Hakeem when comparing him to other centers...by ignoring all the things he could do, and seriously discounting his impact on the game defensively. Yes, the other SF's could score, but NONE OF THEM could control a game defensively like Scottie. Go back and watch the ECF against the Pacers and see how a SF can control a game defensively. That is unheard of. He could also score and set up teammates. Read the article again and notice that his high ranking is based on his ability to play both sides of the ball (something the others could not do).

Haters.........

 

I'm sorry guys. Scottie Pippen dominated on the defensive end, guarded two players at once, disrupted pick and roll offense, disrupted point guards from Magic to Mark Jackson, and turned around on the other end and was able to run the most complicated and exacting NBA offense there is.

Dr. J and Rick Barry scored a bunch of points.

 

from Icehouse:

I understand you're a fan, but if Horry and Cassell hadn't come along it's probable Dream would have remained ringless, and no matter what postion you're talking about Dream may have been the best all-around player in '92-'95.

Pip has six rings with the annointed best player ever. Dr. J. found winning a title pretty easy when Moses came around. If West had a younger Wilt or a same age Kareem you wouldn't have a chance of even bringing Pippen up.

Pippen's going to be in the HOF, he has his rings - he's been adored - but his strength on the court was being told what to do from someone that actually made him listen. PJ didn't qualify, but I do hope it is he that presents him to the HOF. Chuckle.

 

Great post. The ONLY player I would rank ahead of Pippen on that list is Dr. J. At worst Pippen was the 4th best small forward of all-time. Yeah maybe he was not as dominant on offense as others on that list but he could still dominate a game with his defense. Additionally he was a great passer, could run an offense like a PG, and was a good rebounder as well. Also, last time I checked scoring 18-21 pts a game isn’t exactly being a scrub either (don’t forget MJ was very often a ball hog).

I know everyone here in Houston hates Pippen but let’s not forget that he was one of the best all-around players in NBA history.

 

Sometimes I wonder how old certain posters are and sometimes I marvel at the NBA's great hype machine. The NFL is still at least a decade behind...

 

Hey Horry has 6 Rings. He also a much better role player, and he has never blamed anyone for his teams loss. Other than throwing the towel at Ainge's face, which put him up even higher in my book.

 

So . . of the top 10
How many were the SECOND FIDDLE on their teams?

Capt Coattails

Rocket River

 

Does it really matter? Only Bird, Irving in the ABA (not NBA), and maybe Havlicek because of Dave Cowens, won a championship as the undisputed #1, the rest did about as good as Pippen did with the Bulls in 95 and the Blazers in 2000 without a #1. Irving, when he won in the NBA was a SECOND FIDDLE to the MVP Moses Malone, Julius Irving was Captain Coattails too?

 

I quit reading this thread after reading this. Clyde over Jordan? Sometimes I wonder if some of you are so caught up in Houston Rockets basketball that you don't even pay attention to what other players do.

Jordan is the greatest ever and i'm a rockets fan, but am not bias like most of you.