Former Rocket Scottie Pippen 3rd Best Small Forward of All Time?

An all-star power forward who could consistently hit a 17-footer (Grant) and one of the greatest rebounders ever (Rodman), do in fact qualify as decent.
Are you complaining about Longley? So what? Ostertag was the starting center for that greeaat team the Bulls beat for a title, twice. In fact, let's look at the centers for all the teams the Bulls beat in the Finals:
'91 Lakers: They had Divac, Thompson, & Perkins. Excellent players. They were strong at center.
'92 Blazers: Duckworth. Not bad, but he couldn't rebound anymore. He was soon traded, and Chris Dudley was considered an upgrade.
'93 Suns: They had no center to speak of. They made due with Mark West and Oliver Miller, and played a lot of small ball.
'96 Sonics: Broken down, can't-rebound-anymore Sam Perkins, with Ervin Johnson backing him up.
'97 Jazz: Ostertag & Foster.
'98 Jazz: Ostertag & Foster again.
So out of all those teams, the Lakers had a big advantage at the 5, the Blazers maybe slightly, and the other four were a wash at best. So what's your point?

Russell won 11 championships. Kareem had 6. Wilt had 2 only because Russell and the greatest team in history were in his way. Hakeem had 2 only because the best player he ever played with (before sugeries made him a shadow of his former self) was a broken-down, ready-to-retire Clyde Drexler. And in 1993-94 his second-best player was... ummm... Otis Thorpe? Hakeem won with ZERO stars by his side that year. I would argue that no one else has ever done that.

 

And I'm positive Jordan wouldn't have gotten all those oportunities if Pippen hadn't always been playing shutdown defense on the opposing team's #1 perimeter scorer. You are completely and utterly ignoring the defensive end.

 

If it was a bign man, the game would have been so lopsided, there would be no need for game winning shots, and if game winning shots determine how good you are, heck moochie norris clowns some of the great ones out there.

 

And all the above players were so much worse on defense than Pippen, it's not even close.

The whole point I was making is that Pippen saved Jordan from guarding tougher perimeter players. Pippen covered the other team's best perimeter scorer. Obviously he's not going to cover Chuck or Shawn Kemp, or Karl, and neither would Jordan, so I don't see your point. And yes, Pippen did guard Payton some, just not the entire time. Why not the entire time? Because the Bulls' guards could match up better with Payton and his 19 per game than they could with the bigger Schrempf's 17 per game.

I like how you damn Pippen for a bad attitude. Jordan was the epitome of cancer in Washington. He whined like a girl about practice and blamed everyone else for problems he created. Does that disqualify him from a discussion of great players? No. Then why should it disqualify Pippen? Attitude and basketball ability are entirely separate things.

No, Stevie never even came close to leading his team in blocks. EDIT: Just in case you hadn't read it before, Cowens is the only player besides Pippen to accomplish that feat (in 1977-78).

 

i don't like pippen very much because of how he treated the rockets and how he played. but he's a great player and people should give the credit he deserves for being a great defender, ball-handler, passer, and scorer. it's very difficult to find someone who is truly great at all those aspects of the game. but when you talk small forward it starts and ends with larry bird.

 

Well, if you had hindsight and ANY choice you might EASILY pick Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, or Shaq - as a short list.

Kareem, for example, won as many rings as Jordan against MUCH MUCH better competition than Jordan.

 

Let me hold a mirror to your index finger.

Pippen dominated on defense by putting pressure on every single player on the floor. MJ was a fine, fine lockdown defender, and the rotating bigs (Horace, D-Rod) helped, but Scottie ran the show. He was the Magic Johnson of defense.

As a Bulls fan who taped every damn game and spends his summers re-watching them (sad, I know), I cannot come close to stressing how dominant Scottie was at times on both ends of the floor. And I remember cursing Michael's play (shot selection, gambles for steals and offensive rebounds) at least 3-4 times a game. Scottie never got that treatment. The only thing he did to freak out Bulls fans was take those transition three-pointers, but that "dammit, Scottie" thought only lasted long enough to see the ball go in the hole.

2 and 3 on Rosen's list are probably the two most underrated and underappreciated players in the history of the NBA.

I know Rocket fans can't stand the guy, and I can understand that. Scottie was an idiot for thinking he could play in Rudy T's system, and the Rockets were morons for thinking he would flourish in pinstripes. But don't deny the man his place in history.

I'll use Sports Guy's words to address the Kukoc issue:

 

I understand your point, but sorry mate, I can't stand this stuff. By the time June comes around (or May, back in the day), you're always playing the second best team in the NBA for the championship. Those February contests against expansion teams barely matter by then.

 

And yes, I'd also rather have Dream than Jordan. Also Wilt, Russell, & Abdul-Jabbar. Size is king in the NBA.[/QUOTE]


Ditto

 

THe problem with him was not the Rudy T system. The problem was that he used this team, his friends (barkely, and Dream) to get a contract through the sign and trade that Chicago was no way was willing to pay him. and once he got here he was a cancer. He used my beloved team. i was as happy as everyone else when i learned he got here. then after all the complaining, all the cancer he created, after he lost the playoff series to the lakers and blamed charles. He goes out that summer and starts looking for a house in LA. it is like your buddy in school date raping your sister. I think all alog in the back of his head he knew it that he was only using houston to get his $80 million. and that is what will make him a w****.
all that aside, i do truelly believe he should not have been in the top 50 ahead of Dominique.

 

Yes, Jordan was a cancer in Washington. No one wanted to play with him. He said he was going to make other players better in practice. Instead he just rode his exercise bike most of the time. He reduced Kwame Brown to a sniveling, useless mass and spread rumors about his ability to live his life off-court. He essentially got Doug Collins hired, then blamed him for "not using me correctly," even though Jordan was doing whatever he wanted on the court and led the team in shots. He PUBLICLY reprimanded other players for "shooting too much." He said he wouldn't get in the way of the rebuilding project, and would come off the bench. Instead he got himself put in the starting lineup, got in a despicable argument with Rip Hamilton, and later got him traded for an OLDER player, to win NOW. Jordan QUIT on his young team in order to build an older one, which benefitted only him, not the franchise. And then, he couldn't even make the playoffs in the Leastern Conference. If that's not a cancer, I don't know what is.

I think it was pretty obvious that I was implying best perimeter scorer, and I kept my central focus on the fact that Pippen was taking the burden off of MJ the whole time. Do I really have to explicity say "Pippen guarded the other team's #1 scorer, except if it was a big guy like Shaq?" It makes no sense that I should have to make that qualification, and you know it. You gotta be really dense to not realize that. Want any more about how dominant he was on D? Read KellyDwyer's post. Pippen didn't just guard his man, he guarded everybody. Or take this quote from the article being discussed: "Moreover, it was Pippen who orchestrated the Bulls' stingy defense — making on-the-spot adjustments, and instructing his teammates (including MJ) when to double, when to rotate, when to sag, when to go over and when to go under screens. On the defensive end of Chicago's six championships, Pippen was Phil Jackson's surrogate coach-on-the-court."

NO ONE claims Cowens was one of the best at his position? I do. Dave Cowens was a monster that's just been forgotten. Most likely because people today look at one picture of him and say "gee, he must have just been a really good finesse, scorer-type big guy." Well he was, but people forget he was one of the most celebrated defensive players of the 1970s.

Aside from that, another thing you're ignoring is that the prototypical small forwards job is to do EVERYTHING. While it's amazing that Cowens accomplished that, it means more to Pippen's legacy because that's what small forwards are meant to do: everything. Fill every hole. Do everthing that your guards and big guys can't do. And that's what he was; that's a large part of what puts him near the top at his position all-time.

And when did Pippen quit on his team, aside from that one incident? That was bad. It was prideful. It was arrogant. But it was one incident. You wanna talk prideful and arrogant, Jordan was the king of both. I offer another quote from the article being discussed: "While Pippen was usually aloof with civilians, he was the player that the other Bulls turned to for advice and solace. (They were all much too afraid of MJ's caustic and insulting remedies for their comparatively inferior talent.)" In other words, Pippen was nice to other players, and Jordan was an *******.

 

truelly great players can adapt to any system, instead of using the system as a failure.
After he left and talked about the system, i believe it was Rudy who said that he had never changed his system for a player as much as he did for Pippen. It wasn't the system that made him spend his time partying in topless bars, and get arrested for drunk driving. he pulled the same crap in Portland putting up 10 pts, 5, reps, 5 turnovers a niight and blaming his teammates for the losses. Just like the year Jordan had retired and he showed his true chracter.
Even phil Jackson in his book had nothing good to say about the guy.

 

i still would, in a heartbeat, hell, i'll take clyde over jordan ( i know it was not in the same year)but hypothetically speaking.

 

No offense crash because it's a worthy topic, but I think this may be the thread that nauseates me more than any other this offseason.

For the record, Oscar Robertson played the 3 when he averaged a triple-double for the season. And Rick Barry created the point-forward position? I hope Rosen get's chewed up and spit out.

Pippen is not on my radar as a great, period.

 

And Jordan played with Worthy when...????

 

It's true... Excellent point Crash. I love it!