1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

  2. ROCKETS GAMEDAY
    IT'S GAME 82: The season finale is here as the Rockets take on the Clippers in LA. Join Clutch at 2:15pm CT for pregame as we watch the game live!

    LIVE! Rockets vs. Clippers

Former Astros Tracking Thread

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by torque, Apr 4, 2016.

  1. RockFanFirst

    RockFanFirst Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,067
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    We got some minor leaguers back in some of these trades too. How are they faring for us in the minors?
     
  2. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    29,277
    Likes Received:
    5,391
    While I agree, small sample sizes prevail in that. Folty & Ruiz were awful last season. Fiers was very good last season. Chris Carter is having a great season, albeit for another team.
     
  3. Snake Diggit

    Snake Diggit Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    11,066
    Likes Received:
    14,909
    Bottom line for me is that Luhnow gave up a ton for Gomez and Giles and those moves were made in lieu of other acquisitions. He has a LOT riding on the outcome of those 2 trades and I would argue that no 2 players are more responsible for Houston's horrendous start than Gomez and Giles. More importantly, if this is the kind of return we can expect when Luhnow ships out prospects for players, the next 3-5 years is going to be nowhere near as fun as we were hoping.
     
  4. cangrejero51

    cangrejero51 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2014
    Messages:
    4,920
    Likes Received:
    44
    Agree
     
  5. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,041
    Likes Received:
    14,283
    They are going to have to make trades while they can. They have a glut of prospects, even after trades, that don't have any place to play up here... and as they get older and on to the higher levels (even if they're still good), they start to lose some value. Keep in mind they also had a trade worked out for Hamels... for even more prospects.

    If you strongly believe they'll be unable to replenish the farm.... and hence why you don't want to trade prospects... that's understandable (but not really that accurate). But complaining about trading prospects for established players... only when the established players don't live up to their previous track record... is just plain hindsigh.

    They can certainly do nothing, and hang on to any/all prospects... I'm sure just building contending teams with nothing but homegrown players nearly always works out.
     
  6. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 1999
    Messages:
    36,288
    Likes Received:
    26,639
    Joe Morgan faints.
     
  7. kaleidosky

    kaleidosky Your Tweety Bird dance just cost us a run

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,084
    Likes Received:
    1,352
    the funniest part there is that Folty has been so unsuccessful at the ML level as a starter that we would have traded him in multiple different trades by now. He would definitively be gone with someone else hoping they can reclaim his SP value. Given how early we made the move, I have to think we got the most value possible to this point.
     
  8. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

    Joined:
    May 15, 2000
    Messages:
    28,028
    Likes Received:
    13,046
    I don't think you can talk about a glut of prospects when half our lineup is just bad and we're rolling out the likes of Scott Feldman and Doug Fister. You don't just trade guys because they may not start. VV in the bullpen would have been just fine. Same with Appel. Domingo Santana in right would be just fine. They're all under 25 years of age. Luhnow went for it and it kind of blew up in his face so far. Unless Gomez turns it around then those trades will really look horrible.
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    54,047
    Likes Received:
    112,296
    When you have a deep and very good farm system, you will not be able to keep all of your prospects and you will lose some players that turn out to be very good.

    The Astros situation is no different. The Gomez deal needed to be made, the Astros needed to be energized and at the time seemed like a solid move. I will not be overly harsh on the Astros for that move. Luhnow had payroll constraints, and had to get a player with more years left on their deal.

    Concerning Giles, I felt that Luhnow overpaid at the time. I was surprised by the sheer number of prospects given up. Having said that, the Astros lost to the Royals because of their pen. The need for an elite relief pitcher was obvious. Luhnow was not given unlimited funds to spend. The relief pitchers available (Miller/Kimbrel) all had a very high asking price. Giles is/was under team control for the rest of this decade. The Astros paid a heavy price for that. We call all sit here and criticize the move, but almost everyone agreed that the Astros needed a dominant relief pitcher. Giles will figure it out, and the Astros will most likely lose on this trade because a relief pitcher has limited value.

    As for VV, keep in mind that he has never in his life pitched over 110 innings in a season. He is also a big injury risk at 24 years old. I am sure the Astros wish they still had him, but they have other highly thought of pitchers that will get their chance.

    I think we are only now seeing how big losing out on the Cole Hamels trade is on the Astros. The Astros had the best offer and for whatever reason Cole wouldn't come to the Astros. He completely changes the dynamics of their rotation. Kuechel/Hamels/McCullers/McHugh/Fiers would be very good.
     
    Snake Diggit and Zergling like this.
  10. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,041
    Likes Received:
    14,283
    Again... more hindsight.

    When Gomez/Giles were traded for, there was valid expectation they would live up to their track record. Meanwhile, every single one of the players they let go were relative unknowns. Sure, some had more potential than others... but that's the risk every prospect-for-established-player-trade comes with (and I honestly can't believe people are losing sleep over Appel right now).

    Again, if you want them to do nothing... and just keep (hoard) all prospects as a "strategy", then that's fine. They will be attempting to be the first WS team ever to do it with nothing but home-grown players. I have no problem with going for it when the opportunity presents itself... of course it's unfortunate when the established players don't quite live up to their track records.

    The Cardinals have made several trades over the years for established vets that didn't work out. Some did. In the end, if they're in contention, they don't stop trading.
     
    #230 Nick, May 2, 2016
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
  11. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,041
    Likes Received:
    14,283
    At this point, can anybody really fault him for it though? Ended up picking the place his wife would be most happy with... AND he ended up picking the better team (as far as last year goes) as is.

    As far as the Astros being on the no-trade list, but the Rangers not, that's probably more due to the 2011-2013 team performance (when the list was first made).
     
  12. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    54,047
    Likes Received:
    112,296
    Well put Cole on the Astros last season and would the Rangers have made the playoffs? Would the Astros have beaten the Royals?

    Many question marks, from a purely competitive view point, I would still long term rather to be on the Astros. Having said that, I understand many factors come into play including family and personal preference.

    No, I don't blame Cole for going where he wants to go.
     
  13. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,041
    Likes Received:
    14,283
    From what I recall... Cole wasn't quite the difference-maker that he was expected to be. Then again, I don't see Rangers fans whining about the prospects they lost even with blowing the series to the Blue Jays.

    Certainly, its a move that will continue to pay dividends for them given the window of contention... and nobody should be scared of trades that don't work out. If the Astros have another trade that presents itself like this one (and they're not the worst team in the AL), they should continue to go for it.
     
  14. bball1217

    bball1217 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    201
    Likes Received:
    7
    Not saying the trades are great right now, but Velasquez and Santana are the only players traded that would be helping this team right now. Maybe Appel, but I think he just needed a change of scenery. The other prospects might be good down the line, but we've got plenty of promising prospects in our system still for the future.

    We took some risks on trades, but in the big picture we are still in a great place as an organization. Plus there's still a lot of time for Gomez, Gattis, Giles, and Fiers to get it going and turn it around this season.
     
  15. Snake Diggit

    Snake Diggit Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    11,066
    Likes Received:
    14,909

    Houston relieved James Hoyt in the Gattis deal. He is throwing really well in AAA and will probably be called up soon. He is a potential closer. They also received IF Jonathan Arauz in the Giles deal and he is still in Extended Spring Training. There are no other prospects that came back in any of those deals that I know of.
     
  16. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    4,802
    I honestly wish the administrators would douse this thread in lighter fluid and strike a match... it's such a waste of everyone's time. Every MLB team has some 200+ players in its organization; this isn't a symptom of some large-scale management problem; it's math.

    It's not even an issue exclusive to baseball; every team, in every sport, has a long list of former players who "haunt" their franchise.

    The depth of the average, uniformed fan's whining has grown insufferable - you whine about EVERYTHING: the players we have, the players we don't have... you whine when they win; you whine when they lose... nothing seems to ever be good enough, to the point I can't fathom why you even bother - everything is just the worst, oh, woe is me!

    The Astros are fine; no one should be surprised by a step back (especially if you read my posts this past winter). They're still positioned to be a long-term threat in the American League.
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. cangrejero51

    cangrejero51 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2014
    Messages:
    4,920
    Likes Received:
    44
    I don't mind the GAttis trade as i view Folty as a reliever and not a starter.

    I do like Ruiz, but we have Moran, who i like more.
     
  18. rocketpower2

    rocketpower2 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    11,030
    Likes Received:
    2,393
    Foltynewicz in his season debut with the big club gives us 3 bombs in the 1st inning.
     
  19. donkeypunch

    donkeypunch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2013
    Messages:
    19,441
    Likes Received:
    21,954
    LOL. That dude loves giving up bombs. Every run scored off him in the bigs has to be off 4 baggers.
     
  20. DaChamp

    DaChamp Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2014
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    136
    Long term threat? Only if most of the following occurs: Keuchel or McCullers pitches like an ace, the other pitches as a number 2 and Giles resembles a closer. The rest of our pitching (McHugh, Fiers, the rest of the bullpen) is fungible, easily replaced and most probably won't be here in 2-3 years. But if we don't have an affordable No. 1, No. 2 and closer (Crane is too cheap to go out and buy those types of players), then this team will be a sub .500 team. Which is what we are right now.

    I'm not concerned about the offense, but we do have too many of the fungible guys hovering around the Mendoza line (this is more of a short term problem, those guys, i.e., Castro, Valbuena, Gomez, likely won't be here next year). The core of Altuve, Springer, Correa will be fine long term.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now