For those of you who think the tax cut was only for the rich.

The tax cut also phases out the estate taxes, which will disapportionately benefit the rich. The full effect of which will take years. I am pretty sure that when the Dems complain about the tax cut, they also are considering the outgoing years.

 

1. is nancy pelosi not the new face of the democratic party?

2. i don't see the republicans playing the rich against the poor at all, unless it's countering some democratic claim that the poor are more adversely affected by something than the rich are...but correcting facts and playing one side against the other are two different things.

 

Al Gore is a moderate.

Ted Kenedy is a liberal.

 

Gee, what was the one of first things that the Reps did when they got control of Congress? Welfare Reform!

The poor people who were pushed off of the welfare rolls are categorically not Republicans.

Each party takes care of its constituency and at times attacks the other party's consituency. I am not saying this is right. I am not saying that one party is better than the other.

 

phi, do you ever say ANYTHING of substance? Or is it all just right good and honorable, left bad and evil? I swear you are the worst new addition to this hangout. You drag down the debate with your simpleminded parroting of the most extreme right hatred of the left, BUUUT.... YOU LEAVE OUT ALL THEIR GOOD, DECENT OR OTHERWISE SUBSTANTIVE ARGUMENTS!!! You're not doing your side any favors.

And for the record, the liberal ex-Governor Jerry Brown, whose Dem primary Houston campaign office I ran in '92, ran on a flat tax of 13%. He proposed eliminating the tax code all together and replacing it with a simple percentage minus deductions. The caveat, speaking of fairness, was that all deductions or loopholes were eliminated excepting dependants, charitable donations, buying a home AND renting a home or apartment. Also speaking of fairness, he didn't accept any PAC or special interest money or any contributions over $100. But he's a Democrat, so he was probably getting secret money from Satan and all those other fags at the Times, right?

 

Gore also wanted to increase military spending which is far from a liberal idea. Gore on balance is a moderate.

 

I thought someone said the center was being moved right. I would say (more accurately IMO) that Al Gore is a liberal and Ted Kennedy is a pinko.

 

I just thought I'd capture this before you edited your comments made during the heat of battle.

 

interesting...i've also read that the FairTax (consumption tax plan) is generating a lot of support in inner city neighborhoods up north...that there are a few minority democratic leaders who champion the cause alongside conservative republicans...i think the idea is that you have a tax code that only favors those who have enough money to pay accountants to find loopholes.

 

To be precise, when mom and dad die, the son will have to pay estate taxes if the farm is valued over 1.2 million dollars (or 600 million if the parent screwed up their estate planning). This pretty much means the son will be a rich man.

Back on argument:

Doing away with estate taxes only effects rich people.

Rich people are more likely to be Republicans.

Republicans with the estate tax cut are taking care of their constituents.

It is all really simple.

 

Oh, for Pete's sake, Ref. You actually buy that selling the family farm crap? The proportion of "death taxes" that send working people into the poorhouse is roughly equivalent to the proportion of evil old social security haters pushing old folks down stairways. Call it a death tax, the public hates it. Call it an estate tax, they recognize that it mostly relates to inheritance money in rich families. That's why the Republicans call it a death tax now. They polled it, it worked better, they adjusted the language. Happens all the time on both sides. You're way too smart to buy the hype here, Ref.

And Gore is a raging moderate. The fact that he's floated one (granted big) idea, generally considered to be a liberal one, without any details yet I might add, doesn't change his entire political career as a Southern, often-right leaning, pro-military conservative Democrat. He's been left of center on one issue ONLY in his career -- the environment. And the American people like that about him. In fact, on policy they agreed overwhelmingly with him according to all published polls. That's the best possible evidence of his centrist proposals and voting record. You don't wipe all that away because he said maybe we should think about insuring poor people. Gore didn't "lose" because he was liberal -- he "lost" because people didn't like him personally. And when you compared his likeability quotient to Bush's and couple that with how close the race was, it's painfully clear he's nearer to the center than Bush and as close as any moderate on either side.

MadMax, both parties engage regularly in class warfare. And frankly I think the disdain for such practice is boring and silly. The wealthy truly believe the poor, and services to the poor, are an unfair drain on their hard earned (or hard inherited, but at least fairly inherited) resources. Since they do, they should say so. And they do. And it's class warfare, if you want to call it that. No different at all than any even-handed representation of the Dems version. Dems say that rich folk and corporate bigwigs rip off the poor (or, as they now call them, the middle class) and Repubs say poor folks, welfare moms, public schools and social services rip off the rich (or, as they now call them, the middle class).

Anybody see John Kerry's tax proposal today?

 

Pobrecito Jorge. Rush Limbaugh without the sense of humor.

 

Jerry Brown's idea was the tax cut is full exemptions given as special favors. The tax code favors those who buy their loopholes. Thus, the tax code embodies the corruption in the current system.

Both parties are also very guilty of pursuing public policy via the tax code. This is yet another reason that a flat tax can't happen or would not last if it did.

 

Ref, no, he won't run for President again. He's not a moderate and he won't pretend to be one, so he can't be competitive in the current poll driven, cult of centrism climate. He speaks his mind. And unless you're a non-threatening, short, bald, Jewish (and now dead) Senator from Minnesota, that doesn't get you very far anymore. Plus he's busy being mayor of Oakland now, where he's been tremendously successful and popular (as he was as Gov), with revolutionary ideas which benefit people of all classes. It's these sorts of ideas which led Mike Royko, many years ago, to dub him Governor Moonbeam, and allowed all who ran against him as prez to label him a nutcase for his dedication to campaign finance reform, his flat tax proposal, his 800 number to encourage small, individual donations and volunteers and, again, his insistence on what he called "speaking truth to power." Personality won again, as it always does, so he's out of the big game. Any wonder I'm out of politics?

Strangely enough, as with his initiatives in California, each of his pet issues has been adopted by the right and the left (including the now ubiqutous 800 number they scoffed at the time) and Royko, during the 92 campaign, wrote a fantastic editorial about how wrong he was to label a visionary and a straight talker a nutjob and how sorry he was for his part in demeaning one of America's only honest, forward thinking politicians.

 

13%!!! Flat tax. Hell, I'd pay more (say 16.5%)....as long as everyone else does too (and the only "social security" I have to worry about is my own--and yes, I know it wouldn't be "social" security then)

Sign me up. I'll even put some donkey bumper stickers on my truck.

 

Good on you, pal. But I don't edit my posts. And there's nothing in there I regret saying. Plus, I don't know if it reads over the internet, but I'm not even heated up. I follow politics like sports, comic books and other cheap entertainment (the only kind I like, by the way). I do hate a hypocrite, and I'll get heated about that. But phi doesn't even rise to that distinction. And I'm not even mad about any of this anymore. I gave up politics when the American people let me down in 94 and my interest has been hobbyist at best ever since.

 

You're exactly right on Brown's position, No Worries. You're right about both parties using the tax code for sneaky means as well. That's why Brown proposed tearing it up. There was a great episode of Donahue where Brown explained the whole thing to Phil (a serious opposer of any flat tax) on a chalkboard and had people come down from the audience to work out their taxes. Halfway through, Donahue didn't even have any devil's advocate in him. Just had to admit it sounded like a good plan.

Don't get me wrong, by the way. I always knew Brown's campaign was a quixotic one and so did he. He ran it (and I worked in it) because, whether there's a chance in hell or not, you stand up for things you believe in. Prior to the 92 campaign Brown had served as Dem chair in California and became so disgusted by the corruption and the fundraising in modern politics that he gave it up altogether, moved off to work with Mother Teresa for a while and came back to mount a (knowingly) quixotic campaign for what the American people always SAY they want: Honesty in government, free from corruption, special interests, cheats and frauds and bold, new ideas to deal with real, difficult problems. Now, he knew that wouldn't get him elected and so did I. But he'd have felt like an ******* if he hadn't tried and I'd have felt like a ninny if I hadn't tried to help.