For argument sake: Would you trade francis for kidd?

You trade for an older veteran player at the top of his peak if you think he can help you win the title NOW. With the Rox, some of the missing pieces are simply still not in place. Yao is still a rook and still will get a lot better. EG is going nowhere fast. Cat is well... Cat. Not to mention we have 2 3's one of which is a dinosaur, the other got the shootingtitis from playing on a crappy team. If we make this trade, Kidd will decline as we become the next Minnie. Sure the players can learn from him (eg. how to pass, sad to know our C is the only one on the team who can pass), but he will not help us win the championship.

 

Your logic has a serious flaw. There is not that much difference in NBA experience.

Cat 4 yrs vs Kittles 5 yrs
Rice 13 yrs vs Lucious Harris 9 yrs
Posey 3 yrs vs Jefferson 1 yr
Taylor 4 yrs or Griffin 1 yr vs Martin 2 yrs
Cato 5 yrs vs Aaron Williams 8 yrs
Ming R vs Jason Collins 1 yr

Moochie 5 yrs vs Rodney Rogers 9 yrs (only 2 years of age difference)
TMo 1yr vs Anthony Johnson 5 yrs or Scalabrine 1 yr

If the Nets were dumb enough to make the swap, the experience level is easily diminished by getting rid of or making good use of Rice and gettting vet help via the MCE. No way in h*** Houston becomes the next Minnesota. More like the next Kings or Mavs.

And please don't try to lay Mutombo on me. He has played a grand total of 400 minutes for the Nets. Less than any Net I have listed.

 

Kidd is leaving for sure. If he doesn't want to sign as an FA for another team, and we're willing to give up Steve, than we could have him.

Basically, New Jersey would do it, but Jason Kidd wouldn't. Everyone knows he's leaving, and if they must get something for him, they can not do better than Francis.

Still, I wouldn't make the trade. Kidd is 3 years older, and his contract will run longer than Francis', and he'll make much more money.

 

If spur gets Kidd, let's trade somebody for Parker and move Francis to 2.

 

for Parker?!...

 

Think again. The Nets also plays in the East. All the teams that have legitimate shots at the championship are in the West. You win the West you win the championship. Move the Nets to the West they'd be 6th, not to mention they play more games against easier teams.

Also, Kittles doesn't hog the ball as much. Harris and Rice is a wash. Jefferson can play O a lot better than JP. Either Taylor or EG would be lucky they're anywhere near KMart next season and the only real advantage we have is in Yao, who's getting double/triple teamed not to mention getting fouled almost as much as Shaq.

 

Let's assume that we could get Kidd for Francis. How would Kidd's presence make us a better team if Rudy still runs the same motion-less offense? We need an overhaul.

Besides, I think SF has all the tools to turn this Rox team into a championship team. I am willing to give him a few more seasons.

 

Jason Kidd has never played for a contending team, or a team that even really had a chance at contending.

I don't know if Steve Francis will ever become a major part of a contending team, but I know Jason Kidd hasn't.

 

In my opinion , Jason Kidd will be around for a long time. Just like Stockton ,who is almost or is 40. I think Jason Kidd wil be around for another 7 or 8 years.I think the PG position requires the following skills ; Court Vision,Good Defense, and Great passing skills. Jason Kidd has all these and more. Back in the day the pg's job was to get everyone involved,not score in bunches or make the highlight reel. I think if Steve Francis was a couple of more inches taller he would be a phenominal Shooting Guard. Heck, i think he can be a phenominal Shotting guard now. My view is that we should groom him to be of a more Allen Iverson type of a player. There's a philosophy that says "play to your strengths." Steve has awesome 1 on 1 skills. He's very adept to playing good defense (when he's not hurt with a strained back.)Mainly , its my thinking that Rudy doesnt want to concede that Steve Francis is not a PG more than anyone. Everyone knows he doesnt have the skills to run the PG position with exception to good defense. I'de love to see Steve moved to the shooting guard position. He's gotten better at hitting open shots each year,and with the allowance of Zone defenses we couldnt really be exploited with him at the Shooting Guard position.I could imagine Steve Francis at the shooting guard position requiring Kobe's all attention on D which takes his focus off offensea little bit.The same goes for the other teams with good 2's.Since i've said all this I've seen the light, I think Steve shouldnt be traded at all. Well,maybe if we get a "potential" superstar back in return and something else in return.But basically the missing pieces to this team are ; a true PG,and a shooter from the wing ala Peja from Sacramento. I dont know how Bostjan Nachbar plays but he could be someone. Toughness from our frontcourt will come after weve played some seasons.We definitely need to get a bit nastier.Thats what I like about Yao , you see glimpses of his tenacity on both sides of the court.

 

Doesn't being in the NBA finals count as contending? Where the Lakers the ONLY contending team last year? Kidd has also never had a center the Quality of Yao Ming.

 

What!? The Nets went to the NBA Finals last year. And before that, when he was on Phoenix, they reglarly went to the playoffs. Jason Kidd almost singlehandedly can turn a team into a contendor.

 

Who knows, maybe Kidd will want to do it. He'll get a chance to play with Yao Ming and a solid cast of supporting players. And he'll get a chance to play for Rudy T., who's gota couple of rings. I know he's interested in the Spurs because they have Duncan, but Yao Ming is getting better and better.

I don't see Francis ever providing all the intangibles that Kidd provides.

 

Hmmmmmm......THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.
If we could sign......IF we COULD......in the offseason.
Francis and Kidd...that would be EVEN BETTER than Payton and Cassell.
Francis and Kidd would be awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would have some difficulties....but it would still be sweet.
Just imagine.....
along with Yao.
And 6th man Cuttino Mobley......
We could go extremely small with Kidd, Francis, and Mobley. And then have Yao and Cato!!! Balanced...

But way too much money. Dreaming.

 

My ideal for this team's future is for Ming to turn into a point-center, ala Olajuwon/Sabonis/Divac, so I want a more offensive-minded player at point. Kidd wouldn't work as well off the pick-and-roll or the kickout for the three, plus he's older than Steve. I would definitely keep Steve.

 

The answer is YES YES YES, in only we can make the trade. Kidd is much better than SF now, and this won't change in the next few years. Kidd is smarter, more physical, and more experienced. 99% of non-rox fan would agree Kidd is a better player and will lead Rox further.

 

First, your original point was that since Kidd was older than Francis he would be too old by the time the other Rockets "matured". My chart of NBA experience levels total refutes your lack of experience theory. There's little to no difference. Surely nothing that can't easily be fixed by using the MCE for a vet.

Secondly, "move the Nets to the West and they'd be 6th"...and this is because of what? That Jason Kidd is only marginally better than Francis and the rest of the Nets are a lot better than their Houston counterparts? Not IMO.

* "Kittles doesn't hog the ball" - I'm assuming you mean like Cuttino. Tell you what...start a thread advocating an even swap with the Nets and see what response you get. FYI, the ball hogging Cuttino averages a whole 1.1 fewer assists per 48 minutes played than Kittles.

* "Jefferson can play O a lot better than JP" - Yes and No. Jefferson is the 3rd leading scorer on the Nets at 14.9 but I wonder how much of that is due to finishing a Kidd led fastbreak as opposed to a half court set. Without question, Posey would be a devasting finisher on a Kidd led break.

This comparison is fundamentally an apples and oranges one as Posey is not asked nor required to be the Rox 3rd option. In fact, he probably 5th. FYI, Jefferson shoots a whole 1.4% from the arc compared to Posey.

And as you have graciously pointed out - Jefferson is getting his numbers in the EC.

* "Either Taylor or EG would be lucky they're anywhere near KMart next season" - Problem here. Neither Taylor nor Griffin have to be better than Martin. Since it's a team game, all that would be required is that they collectively equal Martin and his backup. I don't have the inclination (but I will if you force me) to get a per minute productivity comparison but I'd by willing to make a small wager that EG+MoT ~= KMart vs. common opponents.

There is a reason why on a Rockets board that trading a popular Rockets PG Franchise Player for another PG is running 90% in favor of doing it. What is obscured to you is that fact that Kidd makes the other 4 players around him better and that the verdict is still out whether Steve Francis will be able to do that. And that ability IMHO is a requirement before the Rockets can compete in the WC Finals.

 

Was New Jersey in the Finals? I guess someone forgot to tell them, because they didn't seem to show up. Y'all seem to be under the impression that I think the Eastern Conference is worth a damn, I don't. It's the NIT to the NCAA that is the Western Conference.

And they regularly got trounced in the playoffs by teams that actually played decent half-court defense. Which is what happened when the Nets finally played the Lakers in the Finals last year.

Jason Kidd is a damn fine player, and I can see him entering the Hall of Fame on day - but he's never been on a contending team, because once he gets to the playoffs, and runs into a team that can shut down the transition game, and turn things into a half court contest, Kidd's inability to shoot dooms his team to playoff failure.

 

Your theory is in grave danger if the Finals are between NJ and SAC or DAL.

It would also be in danger if Kidd had Yao Ming in the low post (or Tim Duncan).

 

Yes Kidd's Phoenix regularly got trounced in the playoffs. But it's still better than Francis's Rockets not making the playoffs.

 

Now look here, here's the difference between the Rox and the Nets, how to play together. You realized I did not mention the word experience in my original post because I don't think experience is the problem, that's why I said "the missing pieces are not in place." It's a mixture of chemistry, in which the Rox simply don't know how to play together, or it can be attributed to smarts, you gotta admit, some of our players have questionable intelligence/learning curve. Like it or not, the Net simply play better together than we do.

I'll let go the fact that Kidd is a much better playmaker than Steve, but are the Nets - Kidd a lot better than the Rox - SF? Skill wise, maybe not, but chemistry wise, yes, miles ahead. The Nets' record is 38-21, the Rox are 30-28. Take away 3 wins from the Nets and add 3 losses due to being in the East, they still have a much better record than the Rox. The Nets score 96.3PPG, while giving up 89.6. They are in difference conference so I can't compare conference records, but the Nets win about 57% of their games against WC teams and about 68% against EC teams. The Rox are 55% against EC and 50% against WC. So you tell me which supporting cast is better. Bottom line, the Nets are ready to play with Kidd but the Rox might not be.

JP is not our third option, but in the last couple of games he seems to think he is. Taking all those shots and missing.

Basketball is a team game, no argument, but you forget we will never have EG and Mo on the floor at the same time (and thank god for that too).

90% of people on here wants to get Kidd because they are fed up with our losing (gee I wonder why if the Nets are not better) and are not thinking long term. Kidd does make the other 4 players better, he will help you win NOW, but he will not help you win the championship. If Kidd can't help the Nets win the championship even if the Nets are only marginally better than the Rox, what makes you think he can help the Rox win it NOW.