I said he was a role player offensively, which he was. 15 ppg, 44% fg, 56% ft - those are not the numbers of a go-to guy. If those were my shooting percentages, in that era no less, I'd 'give up' scoring too.
Was Russell the best player on his team, I hate when people make this argument, whats absurd is you compared a role player, Horry, to the best player on a team, Russell. That's apples and oranges also.
Yes, except it's not Kareem's record, it's Olajuwons. He is the career all-time blocked shots leader, therefore, the best blocker ever.
Hakeem is in the top 10 in scoring, blocks, steals, and #11 in rebounds. Who else is in all 4 of those categories??? How come everyone forgets that a freaking center is in the top 10 all-time in steals? That's not homerism, that's fact.
Bill Russell was the best center of his era (sorry, Wilt) and Hakeem was the best of his (mid-80s through mid-90s). I feel comfortable leaving it at that.
Then why do so many posters feel that Steve Francis (same FG%) and Yao (Lower point production) are our go-to guys?
I'm not saying that Russell was a role player(If so, he is by far the greatest ever), but neither Yao nor Steve are considered top 3/4/5 at their position all-time. That would be the difference...
Ummm yeah, maybe because they have 5 years of NBA experience combined! Their names will be up there when it's all said and done.
Yes, Bill Russell was the best player on a team full of hall-of-famers. Yes, those players probably would have been hall-of-famers on any other team. Yes, having a team full of hall-of-famers really makes a difference when the league dosen't have that many teams. I don't care if you are "the best" on your team, it's still hard to lose when you play with 3-4 hall of fame players (in their prime). Yes, your team is stacked when you have a hall-of-fame player on the bench. Sorry, but the argument is quite valid. No one is saying Russell sucks, but his hall-of-fame teammates made it a little easier to win 11 championships. I disagree completely. Why would you take Russell over Hakeem? Hakeem is just as good defensively, and much better offensively. I can see how one could make solid arguments for Wilt (his numbers were just sick) and Kareem (he was so good for so long), but that puts Dream at #3 worse case. Shaq on Dream's heels? I don't think so.....mabye if you believe the hype that the media feeds you. That dude has been on stacked teams since he entered the league, and he didn't start winning until he was the last center in the league. How many times have his squads been swept out of the playoffs? Can he even play defense? Can you give him the ball with the game on the line? Could he win without another superstar? Why isn't he motivated all of the time? You would honestly take Shaq over Dream??
I say that Russell was superior to Dream on defense. Teams literally stopped going inside for entire games because of his presence. Hakeem couldn't win an NCAA title with Clyde Drexler on his team. Russell won 3. Hakeem took 10 years to win an NBA title, while Russell did it as a rookie, and then again 10 times in 12 years. Yes the Boston team was stacked, but there were other good teams as well, including some of the teams Wilt was on. Mine is not a minority opinion in the basketball world, Russell is considered by many to be a top three center, or higher. Hakeem shooting a higher FG% in an era where the game is played closer to the rim does not make him a better center IMO. To contend that Hakeem is AT WORST the third best center is lunacy.
yeah. back when there was one black person per team. were his accomplishments great? yeah they were. do i really want to take anything away from them? no. but shutting down a bunch of slow white guys who couldn't be a 12th man on any team in the NBA today sure doesn't mean you play better defense than Hakeem.
In that case, why concede that Wilt was better. He played in the same era. Heck, that means that Barry Bonds is certainly better than Babe Ruth, since there were no blacks in MLB while Ruth was playing. Nevermind the fact that Ruth and Russell dominated nearly everyone else in their time while Bonds and Hakeem have players around who put up close numbers. You can really only compare what people did in the era they were playing, unless you have a time machine to go get Bill and have him suit up for the Knicks in '94.
Unlike Dream, Russel would've never won a single championship with a bunch of role players surrounding him. He is one dimensional. I consider it as end of discussion.
Hakeem was a monster on defense when you needed it. Demands on his other abilities I'm sure affected his total tally of block shots. Just as Charles Barkley says if all he did was rebound (ala Dennis Rodman) he'd lead the league in blocks every year. What's missing in this discussion is the degree of difficulty and quality of the block. Because of Hakeem's mobility he could get to more shots than the others (Eaton, Mutombo, etc) I've often seen him run across the lane to get some while the others needed their teammates to funnel the oppostion to them. Furthermore, Hakeem always kept the ball in play after a block...some other so called proficient shot blockers just knock it out of bounds, with violence of course for the psychological effect. I prefer a block that facillitates a fast break. Now some of my favorite blocks besides the ones he's known for (the one on KJ and Rod Strickland)... -Hakeem on Xavier McDaniel of the Sonics--late 80s, early 90's don't remember exactly when...basically he snuffed a dunk attempt late in the game...he met X in the air and the rejection not only halted the ball's forward progress but X-man himself...sweet. -Multilple blocks on Shawn Kemp in the playoffs back when he was the Reign man. -James Worthy's patented quick move to the basket...I've always thought that shot couldn't be blocked. -Mark Eaton's patented hook. -Although I didnt' see it, I've been told/have read he blocked Kareem Abdul Jabaar's patented sky hook! Maybe you guys can think of some others...
The Celtics had not won anything until Russell came along. He brought defensive intensity, rebounding, and blocks to a game that was based on offensive production. He alone created the fast break offense that the Celtics won with and was the glue that held that team together for 13 years, of which they did not win the Finals twice. I would make the argument that the reason many of those Celtics are in the Hall of Fame is because Russell put them there. If I were to take Russell over Hakeem, it would be due to his defensive presence, rebounding, and ability to do whatever the team needs that night. When the Celtics needed a rebounder, nobody (except Wilt) could get the ball away from Russell. When they needed to get teams to shoot over the top, Bill would block the first 4 or 5 shots that came in the paint and teams would adjust. When they needed scoring, he scored enough to get the Ws. I realize it was a different era, but when Russell came into the game, he was facing 2 of the top centers in the history of the NBA night after night and the Celtics won 11 championships (starting in his rookie year) in Bill's 13 year career. As soon as he retired, the Celts faded into obscurity until the 80s when Bird reenergized them. I would make the argument that Bill Russell is the best team player the NBA has ever seen, the best defensive player ever, and one of the best men both on and off the court. Personally, I think that those things make up for slightly lower offensive production. Aren't most of you saying that if SF and CM were able to sacrifice their numbers for the good of the team, we would be better off for it? That is the center of how Russell played the game. He was a team player and his team ripped of a string of wins that will probably stand for all time.
Wrong. Try again. Question: If you needed one shot, and could have any player in the history of the NBA to take it, would you be more likely to pick Bill Russell, or Hakeem Olajuwon? Is Russell even in the top 10 in this scenario? The top 20? 30? 40? 50? Now ask yourself if any marginal difference between Hakeem and Russell defensively is enough to make up for the above.
I'm just waiting for Bobfinn* to come in here. Wasn't he the one that thought Russel was the greatest center of all time?
