Well, 87 national team matches and 38 goals (among those ones which decided matches, like against Portugal and Austria in this tournament) is a pretty good record for a midfielder. For comparison with other midfielders, Zidane scored 31 in 108 matches. Maradona scored 34 in 91 matches. Lothar Matthäus scored 23 in 150 matches. That being said, Ballack doesn't have the successes these guys did - no world championship. He did lead Germany to a world cup final, a world cup semifinal, a Euro final (which is already a lot more than many players could ever say about themselves who seem to get more recognition here...like all these Dutch guys, etc.), but he has never really won a major international title at all. The only way he will ever be talked about in the same breath as someone like Zidane would be if he leads Germany to the world cup title in 2010.
I found this very disturbing, more than anything. We have rarely been the more elegant team, but at the very least, I would have expected our guys to put up more of a fight. But with players with no heart like Kuranyi or Gomez on the pitch and our shortest player (but the one with the biggest heart) Lahm out with an injury, this might not have been too surprising (by the way, I don't think Lahm was too slow on that goal, I think he made a mental mistake, because he wanted to block out Torres, but Torres got past him...should have just cleared the ball or passed it back to Lehmann). Some players like Friedrich just lack the class required on that level. I hope we will find better replacements for them.
Other than the game winner against Turkey, Lahm was owned almost this entire tournament. You could almost see the eyes of offensive players with the ball get huge when he was defending them. I don't think I've ever seen a back at this level just get continually owned off the dribble than Lahm. If that's the best you got at left back, you're in trouble.
In fairness I think Lahm was played opposite the side he normally plays in the Bundesliga. Not an excuse for poor play but it should be noted.
If we are talking about this Euro Final, then hardly. He got severely outplayed and was pretty bad against Turkey. I wouldn't exactly call that "leading" Germany to final....
He scored the game-winner against Portugal in the quarter-final. Where was the supposedly currently best player in the world, Cristiano Ronaldo? Did he score the game-winner for Portugal? I'm the first to say that Ballack did not play a strong Euro at all...and neither did Lahm do well by his standards, really...and neither did the whole German team...we played a sub-par tournament...and still almost won it. But is just a clueless statement. Lahm did indeed play poorly defensively against Turkey and in that one scene that unfortunately decided the final - but he is still one of the best left (or right) backs in the world - if not the best. Others like arno_ed, Ace and others have been participating in intelligent discussion about football here and I respect their opinions. You, leroy420 and zboy, ramble a lot on based on which teams you like and dislike. You made it a point in many of your posts to state your dislike of the German team...fair enough - I don't mind the envy. But some of your assessments are just tainted by your envy and hatred. There is a reason that Ballack and Lahm (and Podolski) were voted to the tournament's all-star team. This is the first decade since the 60s that we haven't won either the world cup or the Euro, or both. German Finals appearances: 1954 (WC - won), 1966 (WC - lost), 1972 (Euro - won), 1974 (WC - won), 1976 (Euro - lost), 1980 (Euro - won), 1982 (WC - lost), 1986 (WC - lost), 1990 (WC - won), 1992 (Euro - lost), 1996 (Euro - won), 2002 (WC - lost), 2008 (Euro - lost) Spain during that time: 1964 (Euro - won), 1984 (Euro - lost), 2008 (Euro - won) England during that time: 1966 (WC - won - that's it) So I guess we just thought...why not let someone else win once in a while...otherwise it gets boring. Anyway, we'll just win the 2010 world cup.
You rock. Spain deserved to win, most def. What got me was how annoying Andy Gray got. All he did was b**** about the refs and talk bad about Germany. I don't mind a little subjective broadcasting, but when a German guy flops his response is always I don't see how a hit like that could knock a grown man to the ground but when a Spanish or Turkish player flops its either silence, or might have been a foul there, or that's a foul. Listen Andy, I know you are proud of the rich lineage of British Isle championships and probably lived through the blitz, but can you lay down your hate for Germany so we can just enjoy the final? Can you?
Ridiculous statement. That does not equate to leading his team to the finals. Other players scored goals too. Does that mean they are all leading their teams?? He contributed, sure, but it's not the same as being outstanding and carrying the team. I agree with what the original poster said. I was not impressed by Ballack in this tournament. Maybe part of the reason is what Rivaldo implied, him being compared to greats of the game and the standard being set high.
If you should know... I have liked Germany for a long time and rooted for Klinsman, Lothar Matheus, Rudy Voller....went to standium to see them play in the quarterfinal in 94 World Cup (lost to Bulgaria). They were also one of the teams I rooted for in the last world cup. As for the this Euro team, I didn't like or dislike them. In any case, I can criticize their play. Their play in both the semifinals and finals was very sub par, in fact disappointing. I also pointed out the fallacy in your statement about Ballack leading them to finals in this Euro. Ballack didn't lead them. His contribution did not stand out to the point that he could be said as leading. Get rid of your homer glasses and it will become apparent. Just because someone does not agree with your assessment does not mean they are doing it because they * supposedly dislike* your team. Grow up.
One of the best in the world? Which world is that? Lahm was terrible. Period. He was repeatedly beat 1v1 over and over again. What I saw had nothing to do with any feelings I might have for or against Germany. No, I'm not a fan of Germany. I'm also not particularly for or against most of teams in this tourney. I was hoping for a Holland/Portugal final, but the 2 best teams got through for a reason. I have respect for Germany even if I don't enjoy their style. I am not a fan of Ballack. However, I was a fan of Klinsmann and Matthaus (until his pathetic run in the MLS). Currently, I do like Podolski and Schweinsteiger (he was their best player, IMO). I think you have to face some facts, though. Your boys got worked, plain and simple. Ballack was reduced to nothing more than a hacker and Lehman is now crying about the ref. I don't hate Germany, as much as you want to believe it. I'm just glad the better team won.
Stop the bickering, yeesh. Like someone stated earlier in the thread, the Dynamos would lay a huge brick of Ownage on both the finals team. Now can someone tell me why Aragones absolutely insist on taking Torres out midway through the second half EVERY single game? IIRC Torres wasn't doing all too bad in the final game, yet he still got subbed out. I don't know what the plan was behind that, especially with Villa out. On a lighter note, anyone saw trash being thrown to one of the Spanish players when he was setting up for a corner kick? One actually hit his back as he was bending down to set the ball. I thought that was funny, cus it seemed like he was clueless that it was happening. Torres should've ran over to the German fans side when we was celebrating his goal, just to see what would happen.
I am not a fan of Germany either. Never have been(sorry SJC) I just never liked lean and big guys beating up smaller guys. But, let's be objective, you don't know what you are talking about. Lahm and Ballack are the two best players on the German squad. Name another left back that you won't even compare Lahm with. To me I rank Lahm right in the top 5 left backs in the World.
Hold on. You quote me saying that he scored the game-winner against Portugal. Then you go on to say this is a ridiculous statement. No need to look any further - I stated a fact that everyone has seen or can look up, you call that a ridiculous statement? Fact of the matter is, had he not made that header, we would probably not have made it to the next round. Anything else you try to twist there is just nonsense and desperate semantics. If you cared to read, this is exactly what I said. Where is the disagreement? All your rambling there is just semantics...is scoring a game-winner "leading a team", yes, no? Who cares? By the way, Ballack HAMMERED a free kick home against Austria that decided that match. I guess that is not "leading" the team either... Homer glasses? Can you even read at all? Quite frankly, I thought that, despite his two game-winning goals against Austria and Portugal, Ballack SUCKED in this tournament. He still got a lot further with his team than the "best player in the world" Cristiano Ronaldo...all luck, I know... Hold on, Zboy... with a user name like that, you dare to say "grow up"? Truth is, I don't care where your envy and hate comes from. I re-read your posts in this thread, and, contrary to leroy420, you did not explicitly state dislike (other than for the "Italy Jazz"), so I give you that. Nobody cares. Thanks to YallMean who has already answered this. It was just paper...I thought I did a good job even getting that far with it (yes, I was sitting exactly in that corner... No, I wasn't the one who threw it...but in contrast to some German fans around me who found it embarrassing, I thought it was funny... ).
I will never say I'm a fan of the German team (Sorry SJC). But give them credit. They are one of the best teams in the world. Maybe they do not seem one talent wise. But for some reason (Character, teamwork etc.) they always go far in any tournament. I really like Podolsky and schweinsteiger, especially with Klose as a striker that is one dangerous offense unit. Ballack is good. he didn't play great this tournament (As SJC stated). but he is a good player. And he is the leader of that team.
Yes very ridiculous and here's why. You made an argument to Rivaldo about Ballack leading his team to different tournaments. Notice how I did not refute all except this tournament, where I specifically said, that based on his performance in this Euro, it does not make sense to say that Ballack "lead" his team to final. You countered with an example of him scoring a goal. So I ask you, was Ballack the only one who scored for Germany in the tournament? What about the Germans? Based on your argument, what makes Ballack one leading his team to finals and not those other Germans who scored. No, it's not. Just because someone scores a goal, does not mean they are leading their team necessarily, ESPECIALLY not leading them to finals, as you implied. Heck, you don't even have to score a goal to lead a team. Top midfielders can control the whole tempo of the game and lead their team without even scoring a goal. Top defenders can lead the team by putting the clamps down. Players can lead their team thru inspiration. Ballack was not impressive at all in controlling the midfield. Eh..unless you are thinking that "leading" means scoring a goal to put your team ahead. Even then, its not like Ballack was scoring in bunches. First you make an argument saying Ballack lead his team to Euro Finals. Then... You say that he sucked. This way to Sir Jackie Chiles thought process.... The argument a lil one would use. Yeah I lost but but.... my dad would beat up your dad.... Like I said, grow up!! We are talking about Ballack, Ronaldo has his own faults and we can dicuss that too if you want, elsewhere. And yes, Ballack did go further but he was another piece of the team. He did not lead them, which was the point of the discussion. Based on your comprehension skills and your picking on username comback, I absolutely stick to what I say. Thanks for proving my point! I am neither envious nor hateful of Germany. It's a very tired and lame attempt of yours to attack the person instead of attacking the arguments. As I already said, I have followed and supported Germany for a long time because they play clean tactical game and have produced some very good strikers. But I am not at all afraid to criticize their performance when it calls for it. Well obviously you do, because you took all that time to read my posts in this thread, and specifically trying hard to search a "i hate Germany" post.
As arno_ed said, Germany went to the final, and Ballack is the leader of the German team - he could/should have played a lot better in the last two matches (by the way, he was apparently injured before the final), but he scored two important goals which helped Germany advance. All your rambling about what constitutes "leading" a team doesn't change those facts. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WbwrpxIOGnc&hl=de"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WbwrpxIOGnc&hl=de" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> That free-kick is leadership right there.
I did not disagree with arno's staement. Why? Because he is right on both accounts. 1) Germany went to finals. Absolutely. 2) Ballack is perceived as the leader of the team. Sure. However, contrary to your claim, he did not lead his team to the Euro finals. It's really not that hard to see, frankly, but based on your lack of comprehension skills I can see why you are having problem with it. Heck I even agree that he is a good player, as arno said. He has done well in the past. But at the same time I do not have a problem with Rivaldo's comments that he is overrated too.
