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Floor Raisers vs Ceiling Raisers

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by celebrevida, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. celebrevida

    celebrevida Member

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    Imagine a building. Floor 0 is a proverbial basement level team. Floor 100 is a championship level team.

    We've heard of the statement that a player is a floor-raising player or ceiling-raising player, neither or both.

    Let's consider two teams, 20th floor team (T20) vs 80th floor team (T80). What is the impact of Player X on T20 vs T80?

    Lebron James is probably a good example of one of the greatest floor raisers but a mediocre ceiling raiser. Looks at those awful Cavs teams, he raised those T20 teams into a T80 team even making some finals.

    But when he was on the Superteam Heatles, he barely won 2 of 4 titles but many say he underachieved. The biggest complaint is that he made Bosh into basically Kyle Korver role and diminished him and also the same was true of Kevin Love. Even Wade had no defer and diminish his game to fit alongside Lebron. They were so talented that it worked but barely. It is VERY conceivable that Heatles win only 1 out of 4 considering how close the Heatles were to losing in 2013!!!

    Lebron is not the only such player and not necessarily even the best example of such a player. For example, imagine a player that is a tremendous iso player that can score on his own anytime he wants but reduces other players to spot up shooters. Imagine a player that is so ball dominant that he might as well not be on the floor offensively when he doesn't have the ball. And to top it off, imagine if he was, at best, a mediocre to below average defender. And to top it off, he is not a great team leader for various reasons. Well such a player would be a +40 floor raiser but probably only a +10 ceiling raiser.

    Off the top of my head, the biggest example current example of a pure ceiling raiser but non-existent floor raiser is, say, Draymond Green. You put him on a T20 team, that team is gonna be a T20 team. But you put a prime Green on a T80 level team, his playmaking, high BBIQ, defensive prowess, etc can really put such a team to T100.

    Are there players that are both great floor raisers and ceiling raisers? Yes but they are rare. But prime Michael Jordan is probably the greatest example. And that is why he is GOAT.
     
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  2. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    I like Wall raiser.
     
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  3. Salvy

    Salvy Member

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    Wood Raisers
     
  4. Patience

    Patience Contributing Member
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    But has anyone ever raised the floor through the roof?
     
  5. Downtown Sniper

    Downtown Sniper Contributing Member

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    Just.... Just how do you even come up with that hahaha.

    My god. It's not VERY conceivable. Because history proved it did not happen.

    It's VERY conceivable I bought the Houston Rockets off Tilman yesterday.
     
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  6. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    Who would you rather have. Robert Horry or LerBrun
     
  7. PrawnJ

    PrawnJ Member

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    james harden is one of the best floor raisers if not the best. James harden + 4 scrubs is still a playoff 8 seed team. I think steph curry is one of the best ceiling raisers - his game as a shooter, playmaker can complement any other star's game.
     
  8. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

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    Don't know about ceiling and floor raisers, but how about Hell Raisers!
     
  9. jowman

    jowman Member

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    Bad example. Replace harden or Lebron with a great “ceiling raiser” on any of their teams even the stacked championship contenders (heat, 2018 rockets) and the team gets worse. Superstars> Fringe All stars/ top role players. It ain’t that complicated.
     
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  10. roslolian

    roslolian Rockets Only Fan

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    This is the dumbest **** I ever read.

    If Jordan was such a great "Floor Raiser" why his Bulls team couldn't go past ECF without Pippen and Phil Jackson? Meanwhile Lebron going to the Finals or winning a ring is "under achieving"? So getting eliminated in the 2nd round is floor raising and ceiling raising but getting in the Finals is mediocre ceiling raising? You think making the Finals or getting to 2nd round is a higher ceiling? Get outta here.

    The reality is there is no such distinction between floor raising and ceiling raising when it comes to superstars, it is purely human bias and perception just like how the last shot in basketball is over dramatized when in reality there are 100+ shots that determined the final outcome in any given game.
    A true superstar is both a ceiling raiser and a floor raiser, he is just a great player, period. Shaq for example wasn't clutch, wasn't a great leader or role model, but in his prime all you really needed was him and a bunch of 3 pt shooters and you get 3 peat. Same thing with Tim Duncan.

    It is all about TALENT. Your TALENT is what determines both your ceiling and your floor. If you are a generational talent like Lebron, KD, MJ, Harden etc then automatically you make bad teams better and make good teams great. If you aren't as talented then you can't make teams as good as opponents can. Cp3 for example made a bad OKC team really good but he flopped in the playoffs cuz at the end of the day he isn't as good as James Harden who is 6'5 and can do what he does but better. On the other hand put Harden on that OKC team and they prob win their first round matchup, the reason is Harden is just a lot more talented than Cp3.

    Put Lebron James or KD in the 90s alongside Pippen and Rodman you think they don't win 6 rings? Both would prob win even more rings as they won't retire to play baseball. Gimme a break.
     
    #10 roslolian, Jan 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
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  11. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Easter Egg Hunter - Tell me why? نحن عائلة
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    What about a good fund raiser?
     
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  12. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    We already have it. It's called LTS.
     
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  13. celebrevida

    celebrevida Member

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    This is 100% wrong. A superstar that just chucks and chucks and plays iso ball all day (but is otherwise a tremendous iso scorer) is going to be a great floor raiser but limited ceiling raiser. It makes a huge difference whether a superstar can or cannot elevate the play of other players or even actually diminishes them because his preferred style forces other stars or role players to have to defer their game and skills.

    In fact such a hypothetical player could even make a T20 team into a T50 team but a T90 team a T85 team because of his style of play. We all know lots of players who fit this mold. Saying that a superstar is a superstar and there is no distinction between floor-raisers and ceiling-raisers is just way off the mark.
     
  14. jowman

    jowman Member

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    Get 5 guys that can create offense and draw double teams like lebron and harden on one team and that team will beat the breaks off of curry Thompson and a team of draymond greens. If harden had 4 guys other guys that drew double teams like he does he would be the most efficient high volume player in the NbA while having energy to expend on defense. This post is nothing but nerds trying to over complicate things and diminish what 2 current all time greats are doing
     
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  15. roslolian

    roslolian Rockets Only Fan

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    You realize MJ had among the highest usage rates in NBA history right? All he did was chuck and ISO all day. He just happened to be the best scorer in history so thats why he kept winning.

    What do you mean by elevate the play of others? Shaq never elevated the play of others he is a career 2.5 assists yet he made the Lakers 3 peat champions. You think Shaq isnt a ceiling raiser? What the hell is higher than a championship? Lolz.

    If you wanna talk about elevating the play of others Harden and Lebron elevated their teammates more than Jordan. Lebron was compared to Magic more than MJ to begin with. You know who Magic is? One of the best pgs in NBA history. Who elevates others more best pg in history or best scorer in history?

    You are the one clearly off the mark here.
     
    #15 roslolian, Jan 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
  16. roslolian

    roslolian Rockets Only Fan

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    Its not even nerds man just some dudes with an agenda and totally off the mark.
     
  17. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

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    i mean, i think it's pretty conceivable the heat don't overcome a 5 point deficit with 20 seconds left in game 6 against the spurs. it's about as close as any team has ever been to winning a title and not winning. that's like saying it wasn't conceivable that a coin could've been tails because it happened to be heads.
     
  18. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

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    dang, calm down. of course jordan was a floor raiser. but i agree with your general point that superstars are both floor and ceiling raisers. people try to claim harden isn't a ceiling raiser and yet the one high-level offensive player he played with was cp3 and they pretty much wrecked the league when healthy.
     
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  19. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

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    i think it depends. true superstars are both i think. they just make teams better. iverson would be a great example of what you're talking about. you could throw him on a team with scrubs and get 30 wins just because of the volume of his scoring ability. but put him with another really good player and he either a) takes possessions away from that player and does it inefficienty or b) can't spread the floor because he can't shoot, so i think he definitely caps your ceiling. much like modern-day westbrook. someone like klay thompson doesn't put a cap on your ceiling, but you better have some good players around him because he's not leading you to anything by himself.

    i think floor raising and ceiling raising really apply more to b-level stars and role players. true superstars like curry and harden get described differently but i think steph is certainly making a bad team better and i don't think harden is capping your ceiling at all. rudy gay vs shane battier from rockets history is probably a great example. if you have tmac and yao, you want battier. if you have a subpar team, you want gay for the scoring.
     
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  20. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    Why is every thread about Harden comparing to some other players?
     

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