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Fire, Not Explosives, Felled 3rd Tower on 9/11, Report Says

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by T-Mac1, Aug 22, 2008.

  1. T-Mac1

    T-Mac1 Contributing Member

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    Fire, Not Explosives, Felled 3rd Tower on 9/11, Report Says

    By ERIC LIPTON
    Published: August 21, 2008

    GAITHERSBURG, Md. — Fires in the 47-story office tower at the edge of the World Trade Center site undermined floor beams and a critical structural column, federal investigators concluded on Thursday, as they attempted to curb still-rampant speculation that explosives caused the building’s collapse on Sept. 11, 2001.

    No one died when the tower, 7 World Trade Center, tumbled, as the estimated 4,000 office workers there at the time had evacuated before it gave way, nearly seven hours after the second of the twin towers came down.

    But the collapse of 7 World Trade Center — home at the time to branch offices of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Secret Service and the Giuliani administration’s emergency operations center — is cited in hundreds of Web sites and books as perhaps the most compelling evidence that an insider secretly planted explosives, intentionally destroying the tower.

    A separate, preliminary report issued in 2002 by the Federal Emergency Management Agency questioned whether diesel fuel tanks installed in the tower to supply backup generators — including one that powered the Giuliani administration’s emergency “bunker” — might have been to blame.

    But S. Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator from the National Institute of Standards and Technology, based here in the suburbs of Washington, also rejected that theory on Thursday, even as he acknowledged that the collapse had been something of a puzzle.

    “Our take-home message today is the reason for the collapse of World Trade Center 7 is no longer a mystery,” Dr. Sunder said at a news conference at the institute’s headquarters. “It did not collapse from explosives or fuel oil fires.”

    The institute’s findings were released on Thursday as part of a 915-page report resulting from the work of more than 50 federal investigators and a dozen contractors over three years.

    Conspiracy theorists have pointed to the fact that the building fell straight down, instead of tumbling, as proof that explosives were used to topple it, as well as to bring down the twin towers. Sixteen percent of the respondents in a Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll said it was very likely or somewhat likely that explosives were planted.

    During the last four decades, other towers in New York, Philadelphia and Los Angeles have remained standing through catastrophic blazes that burned out of control for hours because of malfunctioning or nonexistent sprinkler systems. But 7 World Trade Center, which was not struck by a plane, is the first skyscraper in modern times to collapse primarily as a result of a fire. Adding to the suspicion is the fact that in the rush to clean up the site, almost all of the steel remains of the tower were disposed of, leaving investigators in later years with little forensic evidence.


    Using videos, photographs and building design documents, the investigators at the National Institute spent the last three years building an elaborate computer model of 7 World Trade Center that they used to test various chains of events to figure out what caused the collapse, Dr. Sunder said.

    The investigators determined that debris from the falling twin towers damaged structural columns and ignited fires on at least 10 floors at 7 World Trade Center, which stood about 400 feet north of the twin towers. But the structural damage from the falling debris was not significant enough to threaten the tower’s stability, Dr. Sunder said.

    The fires on six of the lower floors burned with particular intensity because the water supply for the sprinkler system had been cut off — the upper floors had a backup water supply — and the Fire Department, devastated by the collapse of the twin towers, stopped trying to fight the blaze.

    Normally, fireproofing on a skyscraper should have been sufficient to allow such a blaze to burn itself out and leave the building damaged but still standing. But investigators determined that the heat from the fire caused girders in the steel floor of 7 World Trade Center to expand. As a result, steel beams underneath the floors that provided lateral support for the tower’s structural columns began to buckle or put pressure against the vertical structural columns.

    These fires might have been fed partly by the diesel from tanks and a pressurized fuel line, which were on the fifth to the ninth floors, Dr. Sunder said. But the analysis showed that even in the worst case, the diesel fuel-fed fire would not have burned hot enough or long enough to have played a major role in weakening the structure. The investigators determined that the fire that day was fed mainly by office paper and furnishings.

    The collapse started when a girder on the 13th floor disconnected from a critical column — listed as Column 79 — that supported a long open floor span, the report said. Once that floor gave way, the floors below it down to the fifth floor also collapsed, although this was not visible from the building’s exterior.

    Without lateral support for nine stories, Column 79 buckled, and the floors above gave way all the way up to the roof. Only then did the collapse become visible from the exterior with a penthouse area on the roof first falling in, followed by what looked like the sudden implosion of the tower, Dr. Sunder said. “The physics is consistent, it is sound, it has been analyzed,” he said.

    Skeptics have questioned whether explosives were planted at the three towers at ground zero, and at the Pentagon as well, often contending that the Bush administration had planned the catastrophes to provide a justification to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. What started as a small number of such conspiracy theorists ballooned into a movement of sorts, largely fed by Internet sites and homemade videos.

    Dr. Sunder said the investigators considered the possibility that explosives were used, but ruled it out because the noise associated with such an explosion would have been 10 times louder than being in front of the speakers at a rock concert, he said, and detectable from as far as a half a mile away. He said that interviews with eyewitnesses and a review of video taken that day provided no evidence of a sound that loud just before the collapse.

    The skeptics — including several who attended Thursday’s news conference — were unimpressed. They have long argued that an incendiary material called thermite, made of aluminum powder and a metal oxide, was used to take down the trade center towers, an approach that would not necessarily result in an explosive boom. They also have argued that a sulfur residue found at the World Trade Center site is evidence of an inside job.

    Dr. Sunder said the investigators chose not to use the computer model to evaluate whether a thermite-fueled fire might have brought down the tower, since 100 pounds of it would have had to have been stacked directly against the critical column that gave way, which he said they did not believe had occurred.

    To the skeptics, it was a glaring omission.

    “It is very difficult to find what you are not looking for,” said Shane Geiger, who contributes to a Web site that follows the topic and who had come to Maryland from Texas to quiz Dr. Sunder about his findings, with a bumper sticker on his laptop computer that says, “9-11 was an inside job.”

    Dr. Sunder attempted to patiently answer the questions that Mr. Geiger and another obvious critic presented to him during the news conference. Five armed police officers and a bomb-sniffing dog stood guard near the rear of the room.

    Dr. Sunder said there were no apparent flaws in 7 World Trade Center’s design that contributed to its collapse and that it met New York City codes. But there are some important lessons for other skyscrapers, he said, as engineers and architects should consider how the heat from fires can weaken structural elements, potentially causing a so-called progressive collapse.

    Owners of tall buildings with a similar floor design — he could not estimate how many such towers exist in the United States — should immediately consider whether to install reinforcements, he said, and perhaps codes should be changed to address the weakness.

    A new, substantially different 7 World Trade Center — now 52 stories — reopened at roughly the same site in 2006. The new building has extra safety features, including wider emergency stairwells and a fire-resistant refuge area on each floor.

    Within moments after the news conference ended, leaders of a group called Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth held their own telephone conference briefing, dismissing the investigation as flawed.

    “How much longer do we have to endure the coverup of how Building 7 was destroyed?” said Richard Gage, a California architect and leader of the group.


    Told of the doubts, Dr. Sunder said he could not explain why the skepticism would not die.

    “I am really not a psychologist,” he said. “Our job was to come up with the best science.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/n...&bl&ei=5087&en=920506ca2f959545&ex=1219464000
     
  2. LScolaDominates

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    This has been obvious for a long time to anybody that hasn't had a tinfoil hat surgically attached to his/her skull.

    I am somewhat disappointed that the author refers to these intellectually dishonest fear-mongers as "skeptics". A skeptic is willing to look at the best available evidence to come up with a conclusion, while the "Truther" movement has consistently been shown to ignore all evidence that doesn't support their paranoid delusions.
     
  3. BigBenito

    BigBenito Member

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    I thought this was a necro thread. 2008, really?
     
  4. T-Mac1

    T-Mac1 Contributing Member

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    Debunking NIST's conclusions about WTC 7 is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.


    Symmetrical Collapse

    NIST lamely tried to explain the symmetrically collapse as follows:

    WTC 7’s collapse, viewed from the exterior (most videos were taken from the north), did appear to fall almost uniformly as a single unit. This occurred because the interior failures that took place did not cause the exterior framing to fail until the final stages of the building collapse. The interior floor framing and columns collapsed downward and pulled away from the exterior frame. There were clues that internal damage was taking place, prior to the downward movement of the exterior frame, such as when the east penthouse fell downward into the building and windows broke out on the north face at the ends of the building core. The symmetric appearance of the downward fall of the WTC 7 was primarily due to the greater stiffness and strength of its exterior frame relative to the interior framing.

    NIST can't have it both ways. If the exterior frame was so stiff and strong, then it should have stopped the collapse, or - at the very least - we would have seen a bowing effect where tremendous opposing forces were battling each other for dominance in determining the direction of the fall.

    In real life, the thick structural beams and "stiff [and strong]" exterior frame used in the building should have quickly stopped any partial collapse, unless the support columns were all blown. At the very worst, we should see a 1 or 2 floor partial collapse.


    Freefall Speed


    NIST said that WTC 7 fell at 40% slower than freefall speed. But it collapsed alot faster than it would have if the structural supports were not all blown away at the same instant. 40% slower isn't very impressive -- that's like arguing that a rock falling through concrete 40% slower than a rock falling through the air is perfectly normal.

    Again, why did the building collapse at all, given that the thick structural beams should have quickly stopped any partial collapse?

    Fires Knocked Down Steel-Frame Buildings

    NIST said fires alone brought down Building 7, but other office fires have burned longer and hotter without causing collapse.

    No Explosive Sounds

    NIST also said:

    "No blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses."

    Oh, really?

    What about , this
    , this, this , this, this , this, and this?

    Moreover, as discussed below, high-tech explosives don't necessarily make the same loud "booms" that dynamite make.

    High-Tech Explosive Residues

    And why were there residues for high-tech explosives at ground zero (and see this) ?

    Molten and Partially Evaporated Steel


    And what about the pools of molten metal at ground zero for months ? And why was the at and under the ground at the site of WTC 7 as hot as the ground under WTC 1 and 2?

    And the New York Times wrote that partly EVAPORATED steel beams were found at WTC 7 . But normal office and diesel fires are not NEARLY hot enough to evaporate steel. Hydrocarbon fires fueled by diesel (which was apparently stored at WTC 7) and normal office materials cannot evaporate steel. Steel does not evaporate unless it is heated to at least 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit . Everyone agrees that fires from conventional building fires are thousands of degrees cooler than that.

    Pre-Knowledge

    And why didn't NIST address the obvious pre-knowledge by everyone around and well in advance that 7 was going to come down?

    Experts

    And why didn't NIST address what these experts say?:

    * The former head of the Fire Science Division of the government agency which claims that the World Trade Centers collapsed due to fire (the National Institute of Standards and Technology), who is one of the world’s leading fire science researchers and safety engineers, a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering (Dr. James Quintiere), called for an independent review of the World Trade Center Twin Tower collapse investigation. "I wish that there would be a peer review of this," he said, referring to the NIST investigation. "I think all the records that NIST has assembled should be archived. I would really like to see someone else take a look at what they've done; both structurally and from a fire point of view. ... I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable.

    * Two professors of structural engineering at a prestigious Swiss university (Dr. Joerg Schneider and Dr. Hugo Bachmann) said that, on 9/11, World Trade Center 7 was brought down by controlled demolition

    * Kamal S. Obeid, structural engineer, with a masters degree in Engineering from UC Berkeley, of Fremont, California, says:

    "Photos of the steel, evidence about how the buildings collapsed, the unexplainable collapse of WTC 7, evidence of thermite in the debris as well as several other red flags, are quite troubling indications of well planned and controlled demolition"

    * Ronald H. Brookman, structural engineer, with a masters degree in Engineering from UC Davis, of Novato California, writes:

    "Why would all 47 stories of WTC 7 fall straight down to the ground in about seven seconds... ? It was not struck by any aircraft or engulfed in any fire. An independent investigation is justified for all three collapses including the surviving steel samples and the composition of the dust."

    * Graham John Inman, structural engineer, of London, England, points out :

    "WTC 7 Building could not have collapsed as a result of internal fire and external debris. NO plane hit this building. This is the only case of a steel frame building collapsing through fire in the world. The fire on this building was small & localized therefore what is the cause?"

    * A Dutch demolition expert (Danny Jowenko) stated that WTC 7 was imploded

    * A prominent physicist with 33 years of service for the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC (Dr. David L. Griscom) said that the official theory for why the Twin Towers and world trade center building 7 collapsed "does not match the available facts" and supports the theory that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition


    http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/08/debunking-nists-conclusions-about-wtc-7.html

    Ops !

    [​IMG]
     
  5. ima_drummer2k

    ima_drummer2k Contributing Member

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    I know I'm probably going to regret this, but....






    T-Mac1, what do you think really happened?
     
  6. T-Mac1

    T-Mac1 Contributing Member

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    Oh !! too bad they are getting bigger every single day :(

    www.ae911truth.org
     
  7. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    No engineer knows for certain what happened.

    But there are very credible architects and engineers who are not biased or influenced by the government that disagree with NIST.

    These engineers are not wacko's they have no motive to skew the scientific investigation.

    I don't believe so called 'conspiracies' should try to be proved, but I also don't believe you should just accept what you are told is truth without careful investigation.

    I certainly don't know how WTC 7 collapsed but I am willing to read both sides with an honest mind.

    I went to the Achitect/Engineer website- I like reading that stuff, and might do it if I get the time (some day)
     
  8. LScolaDominates

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    Oh, good lawurd!

    So, basically, NIST and the new report cited in the OP are both wrong because of what this jackass thinks "should have" happened? Is this actually convincing to you? From the OP: "The collapse started when a girder on the 13th floor disconnected from a critical column — listed as Column 79 — that supported a long open floor span."

    Another argument from ignorance. Also, why title this section "Freefall Speed" when nobody is claiming that the building fell at such speed? Could it be that the "Truther" movement is dishonest? No, couldn't be...

     
  9. LScolaDominates

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    There is not a single shred of evidence for any of the various "Truther" theories (if they even offer up a theory at all). All they can do is try to poke holes in the work of people who are actually trying to figure out what happened. Your willingness to hear them out after YEARS of complete failure to produce any credible evidence is not the sign of an honest mind, but rather that of a credulous mind.
     
  10. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    You are insinuating that only the people who agree with you are actually trying to figure out what happened.

    There is not a single shred of evidence left for any theory on WTC 7.

    I didn't debunct the use of a computer model for NIST's conclusions, but I don't consider that a shread of anything other than a designed experiment with inputs, parameters and assumed conclusions.

    You are insinuating that engineers around the world are conspiring to poke holes in other people's work because they have an agenda, when there are several scientific papers already written and submitted for peer review explain how thermite could be used for a demolition. That one theory was well researched and the only response to it has been name calling and censor.

    No one has any credible evidence and that is why this should be open to discussion among engineers and the public.

    Honest inquiry and an honest open thought does not presume rightness or being correct.

    You have implied that it is impossible for it to be any other way than the 'official version'

    I am not wasting my time looking for a demolition conspiracy, but I respect intelligent men and women who raise questions about reports like the one NIST presented.

    There's too much politics in our country not to question. Look at the politician's track record.

    Honesty and politicians doesn't ring true to me. Politicians are who I am skeptical of.

    9-11 is over, but it reaks of politics. :)

    (and no I don't believe our government was behind 9-11)
     
  11. IROC it

    IROC it Contributing Member

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    It was probably rats gnawing at the steel structure for years...















    (Seriously... what is this? Let's just mock everything about the Bush years, shall we? I doubt the WTC 7 was downed on purpose, nor were the other big 2.)
     
  12. LScolaDominates

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    This is a complete lie, and it proves that you have anything but an "honest mind." Please link to a study in a peer-reviewed journal espousing the thermite/thermate theory. You can't, because there isn't one. The paper(s?) were published in uncritical media because the science does not meet the standards of legitimate journals.

    http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/stevene.jones'thermitethermateclaims

    No, you just spread lies and innuendo like the rest of the "Truther" movement. Like them, you're too much of a coward to actually offer a positive theory about what happened.
     
  13. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    Before you call me a liar read my post. I never used the words peer-reveiwed journal you inserted that to slander what I posted.

    I said that there were scientific papers written and submitted for peer review that theorized the use of thermite, the fastest one that comes to mind is the obvious one Professor Steven Jones-

    link

    I did not lie.

    I do not spread lies.

    And I expressed my opinions in D&D.

    Sorry, for ruffling your feathers.

    I am not right about all my opinions, I don't know enough, but I try to be honest, at least as far as my opinions go.

    I don't appreciate being called a liar, but I understand.

    I post in here with that understanding.
     
  14. ROCKET RY

    ROCKET RY Contributing Member

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  15. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    True there is no way of completely replicating the WTC collapse to determine exactly how it happened but as I've said before in other threads on the same topic my understanding of construction and of previous disasters the official story makes sense and given the facts that we know of is the most likely scenario. The problem that I have with the other theories is that they either don't match up that well with facts, have flaws in regard to understanding construction, physics and history of building disasters, and finally require even greater leaps of speculation (such as if thermite was used how was planted without anyone noticing and how were the planes then hijacked?).
     
  16. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    I think it fell because John McCain was a POW.
     
  17. Nolen

    Nolen Contributing Member

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    I missed watching tower 7 collapse in person by seconds. I had gone down there to get as close as I could, but the area had already been cordoned off. Down the street, a few blocks away, was a tall building. Every single window appeared to be missing, full of blackness, and dancing with orange flames. There wasn't a single interior area that I could see that wasn't on fire.

    The smoke was mercifully blowing away from me and toward Brooklyn but the air was still awful. A nearby deli was still open. Next to it there was a cop car covered in ash.

    I went in and got a gatorade to drink. Two guys behind the deli said "Whoah!" and stopped what they were doing, listening intently to the radio.
    "They said tower seven just fell!"
    Outside the door a massive wave of smoke and ash whooshed past.

    For what it's worth, I heard no explosions.
     
  18. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    Well, duh. Like modern saboteurs wouldn't use silencers. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Faos

    Faos Contributing Member

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    Only someone with a higher paid grade can truly answer why the tower fell.
     
  20. smoove shoez

    smoove shoez Member

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    Inside the twin towers is on the Discovery channel now.
     

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