Good job Moon! Great analysis. If you're gonna bash, then at least support your claims with something. It's so tiresome reading "Cat is not court smart and is too selfish to help this team. He'll always be a looser." Gee thanks for that wonderful input.
Good job, Moonie. I knew that statement was pure crap. Maybe is was some kind of sarcasm? I thought Cat really improved his defensive intensity this year. I was surprised at some of the physical things he got away with in some games. He absolutley did a good job on defense this year.
You actually believed the opposing shooting guard AVERAGED 35 points per game against Cat? All I can say is Get a Clue!! Those ESPN NBA opinion articles are complete garbage. That guys probably seen Mobley play twice this season.
Thanks MoonBus, now can you send your findings to that idiot Bill Simmons on ESPN Page 2? That would give me great joy.
Cuttino, is the man...if you think not, your an idiot...if you need proof or stats look in the mirror.....alright that was harsh...but seriously i think the rockets would be much worse off with out him...i could write a whole page giving statistics and what not...but i am to lazy....just trust me!
The only problem with the stats, is they don't take into consideration the amount of times that Mobes was actually the SF, when we went with that CRAPPY 3 guard lineup. Mobes has improved, no question, he has been a real find. He now needs to learn to trust his teamates and move without the ball. Oh, and a little defense would not hurt, though he is MILES better then Fancy. DaDakota
Taking Moon's data, I took another cut at the numbers. I wanted to include blowouts becuase if one team is blowing the other our, it could be due to the play of the SG. Additionally, since I wanted to do a relative comparison, it doesn't matter if both Cat and the opp sg only score 10 points each becuase of limited playing time. I also excluded all games where Cat was a DNP or the opposing starting SG was DNP (really is irrelevant including bench players...only 2 games anyway). So basically, I excluded 8 games out of 80. Over the 72 games, Cat averaged 21.6 (as you would expect, close to his season average of 21.7. However, the opposing shooting guards averaged 18.1. Again, since cat is #13 in the league in scoring, we would have expected Cat to outscore his opponents. However, I was surprised that his opposing SG came so high (a player average 18.1 would be #33 in the league). You can argue how important a 3.5 pt differential is, but its hard to say Cat is a top 10 SG if he is only provides +3pts vs. his peers... Obviously Simmons was exaggerating with the 35 pts figure, but I think the fact that opposing SGs burn Cat for so many is ridiculous. I always thought it was opposing PGs that owned us, but even opposing SGs put up strong #s. If Cat can't provide better defense, he definately belongs on the bench. His defense becomes less of a liability.....
Dream Sequence... If you take the top 29 scoring leaders at the SG position as listed by ESPN, add up their average ppg and divide by 29, you get 17.8 ppg It is safe to say that the opposing SGs are scoring 0.3 ppg on Steve Francis. Thus, it is a wash versus league average. imo, if Cat is holding them to league average with our front line to back him up, he is doing just fine on defense. Who cares? Cuttino is outscoring them by over 3 ppg according to your stats.
First of all, you are not taking into consideration the idea of team defense. Having a good <i>team defense</i> is more important than having a bunch of good individual defenders. I really don't think Mobley is that bad of a one-on-one defender. Put him on a team with acutally some sort of help defense and the results would be different. Besides, isn't it the primary purpose of shooting guards to score? Isn't that what they do? I did a quick skim of all the starting shooting guards in the league and counted about 15 that averaged 18 or more. I'm sure if you looked at just about any team in the NBA they are giving up around 18 ppg to the other teams starting 2-guard, because that's just about what players at that position average. Cat belongs on the bench? Huh? He outscores his opponents by three points a game at a position where the player's main job is to score, and you would put him on the bench. That makes no sense whatsoever. Outscoring your opponent is a good thing. At what point would you say he deserves to start? If he outscores his oppenent by 5? 7? 10? You're dreaming. There's probably not even five shooting guards in the league who do that, and there's definitely not ten. Cat deserves to start right now.
Crispee, However, if you look at that list, you see the majority of the high scoring guards are in the east. So in reality, a straight league average is not really fair given that the average for western confernce players would be significantly lower when you exclude Iverson, Pierce, Stackhouse, Allen, etc. Since Mobley plays western conference players more often, he is allowing opposing guards to score several more points than there average. Agreed, team defense is key. In a conference where the PF position is so strong, its poor that opposing teams use the backcourt to run up points on us.
Here are Ray Allen's #s: [opp PG] [opp PG pts] [Allen's pts] [Notes] Starks 20 32 Posey 14 31 Jonhson 23 32 Jones 29 22 Szcerbiak 19 16 Jordan 31 22 Lewis 4 18 Hassell 22 20 Carter 26 13 Terry 8 21 Bryant 33 13 Hardaway 21 13 Wells 13 25 Barry 13 26 Houston 22 10 Petersen 5 30 Jones 23 30 Harris 12 21 Iverson 17 7 Miller 15 21 Battier 19 26 Finely 33 21 Mobley 39 0 DNP Smith 20 0 DNP Terry 24 0 DNP Wesley 21 0 DNP Smith 13 0 DNP Mercer 20 0 DNP Szcerbiak 15 0 DNP Maggette 14 24 Christie 19 29 Richardson 10 13 Alexander 0 27 oDNP Houston 44 37 Miller 24 23 Miller 27 36 McGrady 22 28 Terry 24 31 Stackhouse 19 16 Hardaway 14 10 Barry 29 11 Houston 34 23 Strickland 18 19 Kittles 21 15 Iverson 25 20 Battier 19 29 Artest 22 32 Person 33 27 Jones 22 30 Peterson 6 20 Mashburn 22 27 Mobley 8 17 Sura 16 28 Stackhouse 19 21 Bryant 27 15 Strickland 9 22 Patterson 15 22 Person 11 27 Houston 27 13 Richardson 12 20 Person 18 20 Christie 7 14 Hassell 10 20 Stackhouse 25 20 Wesley 16 23 McGrady 48 22 Kittles 21 16 Hudson 6 13 oDNP Van Exel 17 0 DNP Lenard 25 0 DNP Hamilton 24 0 DNP Pierce 32 0 DNP Terry 19 0 DNP Alexander 22 0 DNP Jones 17 18 McKie 15 25 oDNP McKie 16 14 oDNP Person 23 16 Miller 30 24 Wesley 9 47 Peterson 23 23 Using your criteria, there are 64 games to be counted. Allen's average : 22.156 (#12 in league) Opp SG average : 20.016 (#22 in league) Difference : 2.14 Those #s are worst than Mobley's! Before anyone say "but what about the other categories?" Here are their #s Allen , Mobley: FG% - .463 , .438 3Pt% - .433 , .395 FT% - .873 , .850 Ast - 4.0 , 2.5 Stl - 1.29 , 1.47 Blk - .26 , .50 Reb - 4.6 , 4.1 TO - 2.3 , 2.6 Pts - 22.0 , 21.7 Allen's #s are little bit better, but not by leaps & bound. Oh yeah, Allen is an Olympian & 2001 All-Star. Still think Cat belongs on the bench? Ok... here are the #s after excluding games that involve Carter, Bryant, Iverson, McGrady, Stackhouse, & Pierce from the totals on both side: Mobley's Avg : 21.594 Opp SG Avg : 16.125 Diff : 5.469 Allen's Avg : 23.019 Opp SG Avg : 18.889 Diff : 4.130 Mobley still come out on top in this comparison. In no way do I think Mobley is an all-star (at this moment), but he definately deserves a starting spot & is a good SG. By saying that Mobley belongs on the bench, you are also implying that Allen is at best an average SG.
Ok, how about you doing some leg work and gather the points the opp SF scored in the 2nd, 3rd & 4th quarter? Your statement is backed only by perception, how about putting some #s behind it to support them? ...like some of us are attempting to.
Moon, I applaud your efforts, and have no time nor the inclination to back up my point with numbers. I am not saying Mobley sucks, in fact, I think he has improved more then Francis, my only point is that he is STILL not a finished product and will need to work on his defense, passing, and teamwork to get to the next level. DaDakota
Man, Sequence, you're a pretty stubborn hater. the fact that opposing SGs burn Cat for so many is ridiculous. Huh? Even when you changed the stats yourself, and are still faced with the fact that Cat outscores his opponents, you somehow come up with 'the fact' that opposing SG's burn Cat for so many? Huh? How can you come up with this when you've seen the stats yourself? Haters will always hate. I'd like to thank Moonbus for all his work in putting his money where his mouth is.
I agree with DaDakota. In fact, that is really what this entire thread is about. It is about the fact that Cuttino improves in some area every year. We hope now he has figured out that he is a great scorer and will concentrate his off-season improvement regimen on other things. My bet is to never underestimate Cuttino. I've done it too many times, and he has busted through my glass ceiling too many times. OK, moonbus, you inspired me to help out. I did Christie's last 41 games...half the year...to much to do the whole year. I counted Sprewell as a SG, since Christie always guards him. Christie gave up 17.7 ppg So, Dream Sequence....use your stat manipulation on that. I consider Christie the best positional SG defender in the West. He makes no dent on Mobley's stats. If we allow Francis to have given up a mere 0.4 ppg while covering SGs in the 3 guard lineup, then Mobley and Christie are identical.
