When I lived in New York, I worked a mere two street blocks away from what was then the World Trade Center. I have witnessed the destruction that terrorists cause. To think that there exist Americans who are unwilling even to make the slightest of sacrifices in order to prevent such catastrophes from re-occuring sickens me. This is a selfish display by a selfish group of people. If close to 3,000 innocent civilians lives aren't enough to convince the left-wing extremists from making small sacrifices, then honestly I don't know what will. Sadly, there exists a very small minority of people on the far left end of the political spectrum who cry and moan any time a Republican proposes anything. This predictable political bitterness, while not effective, is nonetheless unattractive and counterproductive to the legislative process. Not grounded in fact nor reason, these terrorist-sympathizers and pro-Saddam extremists make decisions based on pure hatred and emotion. The people who espouse these lunatic fringe opinions were the same people hoping for a prolonged war in Iraq, another terrorist attack, and failure in the United Nations. They rejoiced upon seeing looting and violence in Baghdad, and they continue to rejoice that Osama bin Laden has not been accounted for. They welcome these hideous situations because in their eyes it damages the Bush Administration. This disgusts me. These people are not worthy of attention, because their motives are selfish in nature. We are at war right now -- the war on terror. These people must recognize that while taking away minor individual freedoms is not anyone's desired goal, it is nonetheless necessary to protect the safety of all Americans. I would rather wait the extra 10 minutes in the security line at the airport than to have a group of people carry box-cutters on board. Apparently the ACLU thinks their time is more valuable.
This makes a lot of sense. Our country is attacked and lives are lost, so let's throw out the very principles this of the document this country was founded on. Who wins when we do that?
Batman: You and I tend to disagree largely with politics, but this thread does have it's merit. I'm fine with the policy, but I can totally see why people wouldn't be. Kudos.
I'm not sure which is the most frightening... the law itself or reactions like this to its enactment.
Once again, I don't know why things like this keep getting posted. I'm not <i>for</i> excessive punishment against undeserving persons. What I am <i>for</i> is the ability of the American government to have access or acquire access to any information they might need in order to prevent another terrorist act from occurring. If the current way this "information gathering" and surveillance is not working, then maybe it needs to be reevaluated and reimplemented, but under no circumstances do I think the Governement should be completely blocked out of gaining access to vital information concerning terrorism.
I sincerely hope the people who espouse these lunatic fringe opinions recognize that taking away individual freedoms is not necessary to protect the safety of all Americans. One can only hope that this represents a very small minority on the far end of the political spectrum.
it doesnt matter. If need be, a great catastrophe will be allowed to happen in order to get people to succumb to Patriot Act 2 laws. Novus Ordo Seclorum. arent these times grand..
You can rest assured it does, Deckard. That's why a great many Republicans in Congress are having trouble with Patriot II. Jorge can spin it all he wants. He's on the fringe on this one.
California is the biggest state in America, (population wise) therefor It would probably have the largest population of stupid people now wouldn't it? probably even more so now, since i live there.
I'm confused about something. The Patriot Act and the proposed Patriot act II weaken our constitution, in some cases seemingly are in direct opposition to it. Yet it seems like some people are saying because they love this country and want it to be secure they are willing to support things like the Patriot act and proposed patriot act II. If you really loved the country wouldn't you want to protect the document which lays down all the principles this country is supposed to be based on. The President and other oath takers are sworn not to protect the country, but to protect and uphold the CONSTITUTION of the United States of America. Read the oaths. If you really love this country then why should it be bad to stand up on behalf of the very document that government office holders are sworn to uphold and protect. During the war it seemed in vogue to bash and bully anyone who disagreed with the President's policies(Though I defend the rights of free speech for those that did.) Has that sentiment carried over to thinking anyone who complains about anything the govt. does or attempts to do is a whiner, who must hate this country, and not want to protect it or it's citizens? In the case of these patriot acts I think anyone who loves the country is speaking out against them. If that's the tact that worked for so many right wingers during the war maybe those that love this country and are opposed to the Patriot acts should employ the bullying tactic. So here goes. the U.S. love it or leave it! Big Texx, Giddyup, and TJ, if you don't like the U.S. enough to stick up for the Constitution then why don't you go join Al-Qaeda. Their attack on 9/11, at least indirectly started the degredation of our country's founding document, and you guys are encouraging that. It seems like you belong with Bin Laden. When are you guys going to learn and stop supporting the destruction of our nations principles? The U.S. love it or leave it! Oppose the Patriot Act.
This is the problem with the left wing extremists and also with the Democratic party. They criticize policy, yet they offer no alternative solutions. While I disagree with your opinion, Deckard, you have offered no solution. The status quo is obviously unacceptable. Too many people have died using the status quo. What is your solution, if you are unwilling to make minor sacrifices in your daily life? How will you combat terror without making adjustments?
I don't have a problem with waiting an extra 10 or 20 minutes, for that matter, to board a flight... I've done it and survived. I do have a problem with " the government authority to wiretap an individual and collect a person's DNA without a court orders, detain people in secret and revoke citzenship, among other powers." which is being proposed for Patriot Act 2, according to bigtexxx. I'm not even going to get into Patriot Act 1, which has been passed. I have a huge problem with people who want to preserve our constitutional rights, paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of Americans, being dismissed as "a lunatic fringe, hoping for a prolonged war in Iraq, another terrorist attack, and failure in the United Nations", to quote you, Trader. Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that people think that Democrats and other ordinary people who may or may not be Republicans and who disagree with the Patriot Act and the proposed Patriot Act 2 could be described in this fashion. It reeks of the early '50's. Or worse.
Deckard, please tell me your *solution* to the problem. If your solution is not to make minor sacrifices in people's lives, then please make clear to all of us, what the solution is. Given your tone, and the tone of other liberals, the solution must be something very very simple. If so, just go ahead and reveal it. Without offering an alternative, I am not inclined to listen to your argument.
I don't know why I'm doing this, but... Jorge: These are not "minor" sacrifices. If they were, all Republicans and some Democrats would be supporting this. They are not. Stop acting like this is some kind of fringe, leftie, emotional response to logical tinkering. It is not. It is an assault on civil liberties and due process and, yes, on the Constitution. Pooh pooh that all you want. You will not change the facts. And also, how in God's name can you pretend that this actually solves the problem? We can beef up security, pass laws which undermine our basic American rights and values, etc, but that will not eliminate the terrorist threat. Maybe Patriot(s) doesn't go far enough. Maybe we should lock everyone up. Everyone in America. And then build a force field around the entire country. THAT is how you can eliminate the terrorist threat or the possibility of another 9/11. Stop pretending Ashcroft has proposed a reasonable solution that only fringe lunatics could oppose. He has gone too far. A lot of reasonable people (even a hell of a lot of supporters of your pet war) oppose these acts. Their alternative solution? Do every single thing to prevent terrorism which does not undermine our basic American rights and principles. Pretty radical stuff there. You are the radical here. You are on the fringe. And Franchise Blade was right. If you don't like the Constitution, move to a safer country which guarantees less rights and less freedom to its citizens.
In keeping with my new coservative inspired style of debate on the matter here goes: We can make sacrifices and have solutions. But one of those sacrifices shouldn't be the Constitution of the U.S. I am so sick of all you enviroment destroying, anti-common man, butting into people's private business, tax the poor, and give it the rich, conservatives, trying to destroy this country's Constitution. If you don't like the foundations this country was built on, then join the terrorists or go to another country.
This is very vague. What do you mean by "every single thing"? Without a clear, specific alternative, the liberals complaints are nothing more than the usual emotional anti-Bush knee jerk reaction. Fortunately, the public recognizes that these complaints are nothing more than shallow political bickering and are an impediment to progress in America. This obstructionist path that the liberals have set out on is a dangerous one, and a path that plays into the terrorists plans. FranchiseBlade -- You offer no alternative either. I think we know by now that you don't like the Patriot Acts. What then, do you propose we do to help improve security for all Americans? The status quo is unacceptable. The Republicans have made a good-faith effort to improve security. The liberals have done little more than their usual empty complaining. If the liberals get their way, then the status quo stands. This would have very dangerous implications on our nation's security. The threat of terror is a serious one, and one that requires change.
Jorgie: The Patriot Acts are not the only things that have been done to combat terrorism. Airline security's been beefed up, security at public events has been beefed up, a concerted effort (including a war in Afghanistan) has been undertaken to find and arrest or kill known and suspected terrorists around the world. I don't know if your tiny brain can process this, but the choices are not (1) Embrace an act which undermines civil liberties, or (2) do nothing. If someone proposed to you that we lock up all people, take away all their rights and end any international flights into the US, I'm guessing you'd say that was going too far (though I really can't be sure). If someone said to you, well, you obviously don't care about terrorism then, if you don't want to do ANYTHING to solve the problem, I'm guessing you'd think that person was an idiot. So maybe you can understand how I feel about you on this subject. Way to continually ignore my continual point that many Republicans are against Patriot II. As usual, when the facts get in the way you cry "damn liberals" and move on down the line. It's so incredibly tired.
Yes, all those terrorists on 9-11 who took advantage of the right to trial by jury and such, how, how DANGEROUS!!!!
