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[FEDERALIST] If We’re Going To Have A Racial Double Standard It Should Be About Black Americans Only

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Aug 11, 2018.

  1. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Well, if you were to take a University class in linguistics, that could help with that. I imagine that would be pretty fun as well. Try it.
     
  2. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Does that make me trilingual because I can understand what they are saying?
     
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  3. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    Which of your engineering textbooks use corrupted grammar? What about your bank statements? I bet the charges against Manafort used poor grammar and an eighth-grade level of vocabulary.

    Starting to get the point? I think you do, and you know what I am getting at, but it seems you would rather dole out these vacuous grandiloquences for those highly-priced internet points. Carry on young MATLAB user, carry on.
     
  4. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    You really are bothered by my posts aren't you. Like personally offended... Seriously, did Matlab offend you that much? I think I brought it up once in my 10,000+ posts? Should I be personally worried that you are attached to my post history so much? Or should I be honored that I dominate your thoughts.

    No, I don't think their conversational diction and grammar translates to "bank statements".

    Do you speak the same way you write or type?

    I don't even understand why this debate is even happening. Do you geniunly believe groups of Americans with different dialects can't read and write English or is it only black people who share a certain dialect?
     
    #104 fchowd0311, Aug 15, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
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  5. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Which engineering textbooks by black Americans used corrupted grammar? Which bank statements used corrupted grammar?
     
  6. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני
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    Prop 209. Race/sex/ethnicity based admissions have been illegal in CA since the mid 90s. When I worked at on South Campus at UCLA, students and staff alike joked that Lunar New Year should be a school holiday.

    What's interesting is that while enrollment decreased slightly for African-Americans in CA state schools, graduation rates increased significantly. White enrollment actually fell the most, and hispanic enrollment increased the most. Of course, it doesn't tell us anything about sex or parents' income or average SAT scores other things in these stats, (or anything since 2010) but I doubt anyone, regardless of their opinion on affirmative action anticipated the results.
     
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  7. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Well yeah, that's kind of what I was saying that in situations where you can't artificially keep the Asian population down with quotas their increase in college age population and increased test scores would lead to more Asians being admitted. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that ANYONE would support places like Harvard instituting policies like that.

    I would have expected white enrollment to have fallen the most with fair policies in place given that they were the highest percentage to start with. Honestly I don't care what the consequences of anti-discrimination policies are, to me fairness is more important than just about any other goal. Like I said before, if what was fair was Asians being 100% of the student body at top colleges, then it would be the right thing. If fairness policies lead to increased graduation rates among black students and a rise in Hispanic enrollment, even better.

    I just can't understand how we could have people supporting policy that discriminates based on race, sex, ethnicity, or religion in 2018. I would have hoped we were past that as a civilization.
     
  8. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Another question that pops into my mind. Are YOU going to make arguments about other people's grammar? Is that the road that YOU wish to travel?
     
  9. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Quite simple, I've tried throwing data and facts at you but you literally ignore it all since it destroys your poor arguments.

    Sort of like how you cannot condemn Scalia's extremely racist comments but go absolutely insane on some random journalist. Hypocrite much? Either that or you're just cool with SCOTUS judges insinuating that black people are dumb and need to go on the slow track.

    I think it's important to stress that yes, none of that says anything about average SAT scores or GPA.

    What's interesting is that opposition to prop 209 say that blacks are now being discriminated against in admissions. I know anti-AA people won't care about that though. Like Scalia, they probably think black students shouldn't be going to these schools in the first place.

    I'm also not sure I see the correlation between graduation rates, because, for instance, graduation rates can fluctuate for a number of reasons. Although maybe there is a correlation, with the number being so low, it means it has a good chance of going up too.
     
  10. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Have you bothered to listen to the President of the United States speak? He can barely put together a coherent sentence.

    As someone that is white and grew up in poverty, you should pay more attention. Poor white people often cannot spell or speak well either. It has to do with poverty and those that are around you.

    On a side note, I have been around Black people that either used slang or poor grammar. However I wouldn’t say it is the majority or close to it.
     
  11. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker Contributing Member

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    190 is more than a third of a standard deviation. Yes, that is statistically significant.
    Who says the 190 isn't because the lower scoring kid took all the prep courses and studied and the higher scoring kid was goofing off? You are the one assuming facts not in evidence. The problem for your assumption is that the gap exists with the same racial groups year after year after year and involves millions of test takers. For your theory to withstand scrutiny, we would have to assume that Asians always or almost always do prep work and blacks never or almost never do prep work.
    It doesn't matter if it was 450 or 190 or 120 or 217.5. The point is that certain racial groups are systemically allowed in with lower test scores than certain other racial groups. This is all a deflection.
    Again, a deflection. The number difference is irrelevant. The point is that there is a consistent pattern of certain racial groups having lower standards applied to them. If they were letting white firefighters in who were scored lower on whatever measurement they use to assess firefighting ability than black firefighters year after year after year, it doesn't matter if the magnitude of the lower scores was a full standard deviation or a third of one or half. The point is that there is racial discrimination afoot and it is obvious. Harvard is a private school, so as far as I am concerned, they can discriminate in favor of blacks all they want, but don't pretend it isn't happening.
    We know the average test scores for admitted freshman, because Harvard provided them.
    No, I am just not assuming that the Asian students are getting tutoring and the black students are not. I also am not assuming that because there is some study somewhere that says tutoring can raise scores by 200 points that it applies at all levels of the test. Is the 200 points an average increase seen by people who have undergone tutoring? Is it the maximum observed increase? Is it the increase expected for someone whose previous score was average, high, low? I am not making any of these assumptions. It was YOUR assertion that this gap would be made up with a little tutoring.
    Which you just asserted again right here.
    Yes, that is the way averages work. Some people will be above that average, some below. The issue is that the average black admittee is consistently scoring significantly lower than the average Asian admittee.
    The numbers themselves are proof of discrimination, absent another plausible explanation. I sure hope you won't point to numbers and statistics to prove racial discrimination against black people in the future, and instead will require some sort of admission or other smoking gun. Want to be consistent, don't we.
    When it became code for racism in the service of equality of outcome.
    The issue is that the average score for each racial group would be the same if they were really using race neutral admission criteria. Also no, they are not admitting more Asians than anyone. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics They are admitting more whites than any other group. Asians are overrepresented as a percentage of population (as are blacks, Latinx are underrepresented). but only make up 22%.
    All of this equates to an admission that, while there is racial discrimination occurring and blacks are clearly being admitted with lower test scores, they are still scoring much higher than a population that they are not being compared to, so it's okay. No one is denying that the black students admitted to Harvard are good students or that they cannot pass their classes, these are just the strawmen you are beating up on. The issue is that they are being admitted over people who had higher scores, and that the racial gap is so long standing and consistent that it is unlikely there is another cause besides racial preferences.
    Legacies = bigger endowment. Schools also admit athletes of popular sports with lower test scores. Turns out that the schools want to receive money. Who would have thought? Again, as a private enterprise, Harvard can do what it likes, so far as I am concerned. Legacies though are not evidence of racial discrimination, they are evidence of capitalism.
     
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  12. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני
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    I don't know if UCLA used quotas before Prop 209, but they did allow race, ethnicity, and sex to figure in admissions. The proposition also disallowed it for state jobs, btw. But while an argument can be made that California universities are making a fair effort to get the best prepared students, Ivy League admissions, between legacy admissions and using racial, ethnic, and sex as factors but not economic class as a consideration, ends up largely favoring the children of elites.

    I would expect the acceptance rate of upper middle class white women to be the most affected, especially in liberal arts programs.

    The university I work for does factor those things in admissions, but in my HR training for management, it's a complete no-no for hiring staff.

    They sent me to a course called "Diversity in Hiring" and it was not at all what I expected.

    I agree that fairness is the goal, but not everyone can agree what that entails. For my employer, I learned that fairness to them means anything not directly related to the job, or their ability to play well with others is off limits as a consideration. The overarching theme was reasonable: There are a thousand things a person can be judged by not related to a job, and skin color and genitals are just a few of many. No one is immune to cognitive dissonance or developing new prejudices, of which even the most trivial can make a person make unfair choices.

    I was taught to screen out any resumes that don't meet the qualifications posted and they told me that I would not only get in trouble for preferring remaining candidates for their sex or ethnicity, I wasn't to judge anyone for coming from a better known school, or a different country or a poorer state, or make presumptions about their politics, or speculate on why they might have gaps in their resume (maybe they had a sick relative, maybe the gave birth), for having disabilities, and I was forbidden to ask about these things or about what their parents did for a living or what basketball team they like because all those things are irrelevant to the job and could cause some to prejudge them. I liked it -- I really thought there was an effort to be fair and they did what HR departments and supervisors are supposed to do: make everyone feel comfortable about working there.

    And that probably benefited someone like me that had the qualifications and experience, but came from a shady place, was older by a decade than the other candidates, went to liberal arts programs not related to the job that no one ever heard of in countries a lot of people don't like, was a Rockets fan in an office full of Spurs fans, and had a variety of media jobs (largely self-employed) that probably don't build an ideal narrative for a public sector tech job. I found out later that my boss thought I was a flakey musician and was against hiring me, but fortunately, there were three other people asking me prepared technical questions I answered better than anyone else.

    Why the discrepancy between students and staff? I'm guessing because the qualifications are much easier to judge fairly for who is the best fit for a very specific, hard to fill, underpaid job than it is to choose from a vast selection of qualified students, willing to mortgage their lives, competing for a few limited spots.

    As long as education is seen as an avenue of status seeking, and not a thing to be valued for itself, it will remain unfairly competitive and discriminating in one way or another.
     
  13. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני
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    Which is proof that being born into wealth can overcome any obstacle!


    As someone that is white and grew up in poverty, you should pay more attention. Poor white people often cannot spell or speak well either. It has to do with poverty and those that are around you.[/QUOTE]

    Growing up in a culture of ignorance is probably the toughest think stacked against success in life, but if English proficiency was the only criteria for success, any Liberal Arts grad student who can write a coherent paper would be set for life.

    I don't think it's about being black. I grew up poor too, Nook, and when I go back home, I find myself code-switching. If your parents are poor and uneducated, the odds are against you developing the intellectual curiosity necessary to overcome that for no better reason that we naturally work harder at things we enjoy. Fortunately for me, I had access to good teachers in a good public school who made me interested in learning at a young age.
     
  14. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    If you don’t like such non-sequiturs, what makes you think others are amused by yours?

    And keep defending the language gap, as though it is dismissible and non-impactful. Good one.
     
  15. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    What I linked said it was negligible and I agree considering that it is well within the range of being affected by variables.

    My theory is that the gap can be made up through tutoring. That's all my theory is. You assumed that the average is the cap or something and that we should operate on the basis that it is concrete when it isn't. Also that the gap is some large gap.

    Except that within racial groups people are let in with lower test scores than peers of the same race.

    It actually does matter because your entire argument is based on people getting in that do not deserve it over others so one has to consider the test scores. It's like arguing for MVP, the stats matter, if a guy averages 10ppg less it hurts him more than if he averaged 2ppg less.

    Funny how all of a sudden the number difference is irrelevant when it's been thrown around by you and Bobby this entire thread.

    You continue to fail to understand that College admissions are holistic. You do not automatically get in because you scored 1 point higher than someone.

    The thing is there has been 0 proof to say that this is happening. Again Asians are overrepresented at Harvard and their incoming class is the biggest one they've had in a while???

    You need to prove that those 7% got in on their race and not some kind of merit. Since we know that black kids going ot Harvard score better on tests than most of the nation, that's going to be hard to prove. Again, I think it's time for you to just admit that black students that get into Harvard deserve to be there. I'm not sure why this is so hard to concede.

    The problem is that you are looking at averages while admissions work on an individual level.

    Funny, because you don't seem to thikn the numbers there represent racism. You're the one not consistent.

    The difference here is that I don't say the numbers prove discrimination, you are relying solely on numbers and ignoring everything else.

    Racism has yet to be proven.

    If the numbers alone prove racism then you must then accept that the USA as a whole has been locking up black people for entirely racist reasons.


    Only 22%? You realize relative to the population that's a pretty large number?

    So, they are going by quotas? Explain the hispanic number then? Explain why some schools like Yale have a lower number of AAs while others like Harvard is higher?

    The only strawman here is that you keep ignoring holistic review. You just completely ignore that it exists.

    It's existence states that people with lower scores can get in over people with higher scores.

    You think that if a black student that scored 100 lower on a test gets in over an asian student that it then automatically proves the black student got in because they were black. You are making that assumption, no one else is. It could be because a number of factors that YOU are ignoring...that Esphende in his study stressed...that you continued to ignore.

    The funny thing is legacies are overwhelmingly white and whites are the main benefactor from it...so it is curious how you don't see that as racist...yet you claim that since blacks benefit from AA that it is then racist...consistency...

    In fact...
    https://psmag.com/education/affirmative-action-in-college-admissions
    " At Harvard, according to a filing in the current case against the university, alumni children—known as legacies—comprise 21.5 percent of accepted white applicants, compared to 7 percent of Hispanic admits, 6.6 percent of Asian Americans, and 4.8 percent of African Americans."

    So, legacies is benefitting whites more than any other group. I'm sure you'll just turn a blind eye to it and call it capitalism, but to be fair I will call it racist on the basis of just looking at the numbers and all these legacies are taking spots of more deserving Asians...right?
     
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  16. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker Contributing Member

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    Any number is within the range of being affected by variables. This number is long standing and consistent. The only way to explain away this number as being based on tutoring or lack thereof is to say that for as long as the racial test score gap has existed, it has been because Asians get the most tutoring and blacks the least.
    I assumed that the average is the average. The average is concrete, it isn't some amorphous figure that cannot be calculated. It is there in black and white, so to speak.
    Yes, that's why we look at averages, and not a one individual student. Holistic review can account for Jimmy getting in when Johnny didn't because Jimmy, despite having a lower SAT score is a virtuoso violinist and is going to major in music performance. Holistic review cannot explain away a durable gap in the average scores of admitted students that is consistently stratified by race unless part of the holistic review is asking what race someone is, or a proxy for race.
    Whether the gap is 190 or 450 or 320, there is a statistically significant gap (go ask a statistician if 1/3 of a SD is significant) that is apparently based on race. If the gap were 4 points, I would agree that the magnitude of the gap is relevant, to me, 190 is enough to show there is discrimination occurring.
    Did I? Do you want to quote my post where I threw in the number difference. Looking back through, I believe I just pointed out that there was a gap the whole time.
    It isn't that I don't understand, it is that the durable gap in test scores of admittees by race would be very difficult to explain by saying there are other race neutral factors to consider. Can you provide a list of factors that you think explains the gap? Why do the admitted black applicants every year get evaluated so much more highly on the factors that don't show up in test scores that it overcomes the difference in test scores? If the KKK issued a statement saying they use a holistic determination in deciding whose lawn to burn a cross on, but they seemed to keep burning crosses on black people's lawns, would you just shrug your shoulders and accept that it was done holistically?
    Asians are overrepresented at Harvard as a percentage of their population in the US because they are overrepresented among the top scorers on college entrance exams. They are not admitting students drawn from the population at random.
    The issue is that somehow they are consistently being viewed as more meritorious than applicants of other races based on everything but test scores to somehow make up for being less meritorious based on test scores.
    I don't know why you would compare them to the average people across the nation. They are scoring lower than the admittees from other races. The scores of people that don't even apply to Harvard have nothing to do with it. Ryan Anderson is really athletic compared to the average American. When determining whether or not to sign him to a deal, hopefully Morey is only comparing him to other NBA players.
    I don't know what you mean by deserve to be there. They were admitted and chose to attend. Based on that, they deserve to be there.
    Averages are the aggregation of individual admissions.
    There is reason to believe that black people commit more violent crime than white people per capita. There are numbers to support that position. Having a history of violence can affect future sentencing. That is written into the law. Now your turn, what backs up your assertion that race is not being considered in the Harvard Admissions Process.
    I am not ignoring everything else. I am perfectly open to any evidence you can present that would explain why black students are admitted year after year with lower average scores than Latinx students who have lower average scores than white students, who have lower average scores than Asian students. So far, all you have done is repeated that it is holistic. That is meaningless. What factors consistently favor black students to make up for lower test scores?
    I have shown a prima facie case of unequal racial outcomes without any logical explanation. You can now rebut that showing by providing some evidence that Harvard is using a race neutral admission policy.
    I think there has been and is racism in policing and the criminal justice system overall, but that a larger contributing factor to disparities in the incarceration rate of black males is their much higher incidence of criminal behavior. There is likely sexism in the criminal justice system as well, but the vast gender gap in prison is likely much more attributable to an overall higher incidence of criminality among males than females. The crime victimization survey backs that up.

    continued below
     
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  17. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker Contributing Member

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    Yes, see above for the explanation.
    I never said quotas. I said they are not using race neutral criteria. Essentially it would seem your skin color is used to give you bonus points as compared to those of other ethnicities. One can only assume that the low admission rate of Latinx students as compared to blacks is based on a smaller applicant pool meeting the adjusted criteria.
    Why would the admission policies at one school result in the same outcome as the different admission policies of another?
    I am not ignoring it, I am just not granting it the talismanic power to explain away the observed facts. What element of holistic review can you provide which shows that based on that factor or group of factors black people consistently score significantly higher than Asians to make up for their lower average test scores. Are the admitting based on height?
    It may, if you can provide some specific factors which consistently favor blacks year after year.
    The link within the article discussing Espenshade's study claimed over 900 factors were considered, then provided a list of eight:
    1. Geography of student's hometown and school (UC criterion 14)
    2. Can you pay full or near full tuition?
    3. Child/grandchild of a donor or alumna/us of the institution, aka legacy status.
    4. Early admission/decision participation increases chances of admission.
    5. Demonstrated and awarded talents.
    6. Demonstrated ability to overcome adversities and persist through challenges.
    7. Demonstrated leadership capacities.
    8. Academic major selected.
    How many of these factors do you think would consistently benefit black students more than any other group and Asian students less? Considering Harvard, the geography point is even (blacks and Asians are roughly evenly represented in Massachusetts). As higher income earners on average, Asians would likely on average have an advantage in ability to pay tuition. Legacy status wouldn't favor blacks the most of racial groups. So, is there evidence that black students more often have demonstrated leadership capacities? That they are more likely to have selected a major? That they have more demonstrated and awarded talents? That they have demonstrated more ability to overcome adversity and persist through challenges? Would one of these other categories for some reason dominate the others?
    Legacies are overwhelmingly white, but are not based upon being white. They don't favor white legacy candidates over black legacy candidates, they favor legacy candidates over non-legacy candidates. Affirmative action is based on skin color. It's only purpose is to favor female, black, and Latinx candidates over male, white, and Asian candidates. That is why Affirmative action is racism and legacy is not. Renting a house to someone based on their skin color is racist. Renting a house to someone based on their credit score is not, even though there are going to be disparate racial outcomes.
    Again, the legacies are not based on skin color, they are based on the parents having gone there, and the purpose of legacies is because Universities believe, rightly or wrongly, that multigenerational alumni families tend to produce active alumni and big donors.
     
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  18. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine
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    Legacies are overwhelmingly white because minorities were denied the same opportunities. It's like you're oblivious to history. So obtuse.
     
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  19. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Let's summarize this, no need to break up my post into tiny little pieces. I will attack the core of your argument and why, to me, it is incorrect. This is the core of my argument. you are ignoring holistic review and YOU have created YOUR own metric for Harvard.

    Here you ask for me what I think explains the gap...which I have...by using the study that is oft relied on by anti-AA people...

    There are TONS of other things, an admissions officer can like that one student came from a harder situation, or as you mentioned, is a really good violinist, but you are the one saying that none of that matters. That all that matters is the test score... Again, you are looking at averages and admissions look at individuals. That's it.

    Quite simple. There is no evidence, correlation is not evidence.

    Your logic would say that Westbrook is a better playmaker than CP3. Now everyone knows this is complete BS, anyone that's watched both of them play knows that...but guess what? Westbrook averages more assists, therefore, he MUST be the better playmaker, right? This is your argument.

    Holistic review considers...well...Westbrook plays more minutes, he has more chances to assist and he is the sole playmaker on his team while CP3 has to share his playmaking time with Harden, we can also see that Harden's own assist went down once CP3 came on the team. Both are sacrificing assist numbers.

    When we look at All-NBA Teams or All-star teams, is that too selected by raw numbers? No, no it is not. It is also by holistic review. Did his team win? Did he effect his team winning more than the other guy?

    Correlation isn't evidence, Anthony Davis averaged more points than Durant, is he a better offensive player than Durant? F no.

    This is basically how Harvard and others do their review. I think you don't understand all that some of the things all these black students go through, I think that is part of the issue. I don't think you've been with black councillors that tell you that you need to do a little more to get in, that you need to do community work, that you need to excel at a hobby, that you need to do all these things if you want to get into Harvard...as well as acing the test. I have, not that I'm Harvard Alumni, but in high school this is things they taught us in school. That we had to do these things to increase our resume and most importantly have a clean criminal record.

    This is anecdotal, surely, but I know that it wasn't a coincidental thing and that high school programs with mentors exist with the sole idea of "You can't just be a good student but you have to do these other things too..."

    This leads into your point...

    I don't know, I don't know if there are stats on that but from what I said above, maybe? I don't know. Maybe tutors and mentors are unfairly and uncociously assuming that black students can't equal Asian scores so that they need to buff their college resume in other ways. Again, I don't know, and since I don't have a study to back up that presumption I'm making my uncertainty clear, but it is entirely possible that black students are doing everything they can to buff up their resume. Definitely. The idea that if you are black you have to do 'twice as much' to succeed is pretty popular. It could be entirely that black students that apply to Harvard have extraordinary resumes outside of testing on average, why rule that out?

    I think again, every student resume is different, and looking at the averages of resumes from one group of people would be like looking at the Running YPC from Penn State RBs and passing on Saquon Barkley because of it...

    Or in basketball terms, looking at the average of Euroleague stats and saying "Nah, Doncic won't work out here," which is exactly how the Spurs continue to find gems overseas and why some good European players get passed over in drafts.

    I think bringing up the averages is thus unhelpful because it ignores the individual admission process.

    Actually, though, AA also favors white women, it works for them too, and it has been a huge benefit for them. AA is not set in stone to help any one race more than the other, it only is there to ensure that one race isn't shut out from opportunity completely...

    So, I don't know if I hit every point. I ignored the crime thing since that's an entirely different subject that deserves its own thread and I'm sure it'll come up again, unfortunately...if you think I ignored some other strong point, throw it back at me, i just don't think having posts that need to be continued into another post is really useful...especially since your argument and mines can be summarized simply...

    • You think that the numbers of Asians at Harvard represents some kind of racial discrimination and you base this off their test scores
    • I don't. I've seen no evidence towards it therefore I don't think there is. I don't think the existence of those numbers reveals that Harvard is intentionally keeping Asians out of its institution.
     
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  20. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    In short you are saying, "I like the results of the discriminatory practices, so i'm going to bury my head in the sand and pretend that they aren't discriminatory."
     

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