So we should just give them life in prison and house them with the general prison population (which is not done on death row)? The guilty have a proclivity to kill. How many fellow prisoners will be killed by these now in the general population murderers? BTW...when DNA evidence can show that only 1 out of a BILLION people could have done the crime...I'm satisfied. That would mean that only 4 or 5 people on earth could have done it and God knows where the rest of them are. So it's nice to think of a better system developing later on, but a much better system isn't likely.
I'd have to disagree. Innocent people are killed wrongly all the time. Hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people are killed wrongly on the nations highways everyday. Yet you don't hear about people yelling to abolish a persons right to drive. How is one life more valuable than the other? If you Commit heinous crime (worthy of the death penalty), get convicted and exhaust all avenues of appeal, then you probably deserve to die. They don't just hand out the death penalty for parking tickets, and you don't get taken out and shot the next day. Years and years go by while people wait to be put to death and try to beat the system. Sure a few innocent people have been put to death in the majority of cases a family who has been terribly wronged has seen justice served.
Yes, innocent people die every day. However, it doesn't give the government the right to sentence innocent people to die, especially when it's estimated that roughly 3-4% of ALL people executed should not have been. That number should drop within a few decades based on the better accuracy we get these days with DNA testing, but even 1-2% is just way too much. Special penitentiaries can be set up for those who have life without parole away from the 'general' prison population. Of course the average Joe Lunchbucket has no real problem with a few people dying here and there, after all they 'probably did something wrong', but that's because your mind is just hardened. There's no reason to compromise our justice system by executing people wrongly. I'd also love to see someone explain why there's nothing wrong with the 1500++ reversals.
Sure a few innocent people have been put to death in the majority of cases a family who has been terribly wronged has seen justice served. Of course, if you just give them life in prison, justice has still been served AND you leave yourself the option of fixing a mistake instead of killing people wrongly. So we should just give them life in prison and house them with the general prison population (which is not done on death row)? The guilty have a proclivity to kill. How many fellow prisoners will be killed by these now in the general population murderers? The majority of murderers are not put on death row right now. I don't see any mass killing sprees right now.
Like I said I disagree At a cost to Joe lunchbucket of over $50,000 per year, per criminal?? No Thanks How is believing in justice make my mind hardened? True, I have no problem with people dying. Especially people who deserve it. And I hate to break it to you but every living thing on the planet is going to die, even you. If you have faith in an afterlife then death is not that bad anyway. I'm not hardened, I'm a realist. How is seeing justice done in 98% if the time compromising our justice system? Some innocents get executed and some guilty get off. Its a two way street. Most of the time justice is served. No system is perfect. Want to know why there is nothing wrong with reversals? I'll tell you and I'll make it simple. <b>It's the system at work. </b> Sorry if there is a margin of error in our justice system but as you can see by your own (unconfirmed) statistics the system worked for 1500++ people. Like I said they don't just start killing people. You have plenty of chances to prove your innocence and many people do.
I'm against the death penalty for everything except treason. I hate the idea of the government putting even convicted criminals to death. My ideal punishment for a convicted murderer would be 90-minute counseling sessions every day until the day he or she dies. The counselor's job would be to discuss what kind of judgment awaits us after death, and the likelihood of our earthly sins being held against us. That sort of thing. Make em sweat, in other words.
VooDooPope, "Want to know why there is nothing wrong with reversals? I'll tell you and I'll make it simple. It's the system at work. Sorry if there is a margin of error in our justice system but as you can see by your own (unconfirmed) statistics the system worked for 1500++ people. Like I said they don't just start killing people. You have plenty of chances to prove your innocence and many people do." Excuse me, but this is America, where we're 'innocent until proven guilty'. We shouldn't have to prove our innocence after we're found guilty. The fact that this has happened 1500+ times, with at least 1 in 4 of all those convicted to DIE having been given reversals, shows that our system is totally messed up. When a system is messed up, you try to eliminate its brutality as much as possible, which is why the death penalty needs to go. Also, it is not really more expensive to put someone in jail for life rather than execute them. It costs the courts so much with all the appeals that it really costs the taxpayers just about as much to execute a person compared to locking them up for life. Even still, you are putting insignificant amounts of money ahead of preserving life and our justice system's integrity. Just because you don't know these people who are wrongfully executed, it doesn't make them any less important in the grand scheme of things than anyone you know.
Originally posted by VooDooPope At a cost to Joe lunchbucket of over $50,000 per year, per criminal?? No Thanks. Joe Lunchbucket would be upset that you're distorting the facts. HOW MUCH DOES THE DEATH PENALTY COST? http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/RDcostTestimony.html The major cost studies on the death penalty all indicate that it is much more expensive than a system where the most severe sentence is life in prison: The most comprehensive study conducted in this country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty system imposing a maximum sentence of imprisonment for life. As I mentioned earlier, these findings are sensitive to the number of executions the state carries out. However, the authors noted that even if the death penalty was 100% efficient, i.e., if every death sentence resulted in an execution, the extra costs to the taxpayers would still be $216,000 per execution. Some years ago, the Miami Herald estimated that the costs of the death penalty in Florida were $3.2 million per execution, based on the rate of executions at that time. Florida's death penalty system has bogged down for a number of reasons, including a controversy over the electric chair. As a result, a more recent estimate of the costs in Florida by the Palm Beach Post found a much higher cost per execution: Florida spends $51 million a year above and beyond what it would cost to punish all first-degree murderers with life in prison without parole. Based on the 44 executions Florida had carried out from 1976 to 2000, that amounts to a cost of $24 million for each execution. In Texas, the Dallas Morning News concluded that a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. The Sacramento Bee found that death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level. Since California has averaged much less than one execution per year, the costs per execution are astronomical.
You don't have to tell me where I live, I'm perfectly aware. Examine this statement... "innocent until proven guilty" notice the <b>until proven guilty</b> part? You want the statement to read "Innocent even after proven guilty". The burden of proof is on the prosecution until you are proven guilty, but AFTER you are found guilty the burden to prove innocence shifts to the convicted criminal. I find it very hard to believe that 25% of all people convicted to die get reversals and walk out of jail. I would venture to guess your statistics include criminals who got their sentences commuted to life in prison instead of death. I hate to tell you this but the system is not that messed up. If you asked the people sitting in prison they are all innocent, but the reality is very, very few are. I hate to tell you this also but life in prison is much more brutal than the death penalty. Every living thing dies, you should learn to accept it, it makes it easier when you lose someone you love. I'm sorry if 2% of all people executed are innocent. Like I said before, some innocent die, some guilty get off. That's a price we pay for living in an imperfect world where the majority of people (in this country) favor the death penalty for people convicted of the most heinous crimes committed against society. I'm not worried about convicts rights, I'm worried about the rights of the victims and their families. Personally I'd rather be innocent and put to death than have to spend my life in the hell hole that is the American Prison system.
That information sounds accurate. Most of the capital punishment advocates that I talk into use that argument as well, and they have a tough time believing that they are wrong. Maybe if more people knew the real facts, they would change their mind about capital punishment.
You can't be serious. Rehabilitation? Do you know the percentage of convicted killers that are released on parole to just kill again? What happens after they rape and kill(or kill then rape ) another 8 year old girl? Do we bump the counseling sessions up to 100 minutes? Cmon now. I didn't want to talk about this subject because it's just like abortion...both of them are rapped up in religious beliefs, and we know were those arguments lead. It was in the 60's that a moritorum(sp?) was given on the death penalty, nationwide. I guess with all the "make love not war" sentiment going around at that time, the people thought we had solved the problem with capital murder in our society so there was no more need for the DP to punish these horrible people. Anyways...like clockwork, with the fear of the capital punishment eliminated violent crimes escalated to incredible new heights within 3 years. I can't remember the figures for these or the comment I made in my first paragraph about released killers...I wrote the paper years ago in college. Anyways, it is painfully obvious that the DP had a HUGE roll in preventing murder. I remember an interview with a New York police officer of 40 years, basically he said that during the time of the "electric stair" that murder, even in NY, was low. In fact he said that well over 75% of the criminals they caught with guns refused to have them loaded because of the fear of accidently killing someone and getting "The Chair". After the moritorium he said that it changed dramatically so much that it is rare to find an unloaded weapon. ....and that's all I have to say about that.
Voodoo, It's pretty obvious that you're going to believe what you want to believe, and that's fine. You have no problem with innocent people dying when we could easily preven that from happening just by eliminating the death penalty. You also seem to 'know' that the death penalty is better than life in prison. I'm sure it's just a blast spending 15 years KNOWING you're going to die, rather than living in the cell the rest of your life with a minor possibility of somehow proving your innocence. <heavy sarcasm> At least when you're alive, you still have hope. As for the reversals, I'm sure it means they were either given a reduced sentence, life in prison, or were released completely. Even still, 1,500 people getting reversals is just way too many for a system that is 'near perfect'. The main question is, what are we gaining by killing people that are PROBABLY guilty, instead of just locking them away forever? It's clear that it costs taxpayers LESS money to send them to jail, it preserves the possibility of people proving their innocence, and it gets rid of cruel and unusual punishment. There is also statistical evidence that shows that minorities are unfairly put to death more often than whites. Having been given those facts, why would anyone choose to keep the death penalty?
I don't need statistics to tell me that the death penalty is wrong. Legalized murder is still murder. It is time for America to join the rest of the civilized world.
But to say the justice system isn't working for those who are wrongly accused is not totally being straightforward. I could provide many links and articles of those who were the product of a fair and just investigation. I believe the arguement that the judicial system is racist is unfounded. African americans as well as latino americans have been found wrongfully accused of a crime and therefore set free as they should be. Capital punishment is ugly. Its not supposed to be pretty. But in some instances it is essential because it not only keeps the proven criminals behind bars without the possibility of walking the streets again to harm yours and mine but it also deters those who are more prone and convinced crime is a solution. We must remember nothing will be perfect but efforts are made to improve the system. (ie. DNA analysis) But I don't know if special facilities should be built to accommodate people who for the most part are guilty of their crimes. Most tax payers won't support it. But lets remember some of these people are benefiting from tax dollars by having the ability to take free college classes and obtaining college degrees.
I'm not distorting facts. That was a number I heard about housing prisioners at Rikers in NY. I don't care if the cost is actuall half that, which it is here in texas. You are comparing the cost of appeals and trials associated with putting someone to death to just the cost of housing a prisoner. What you fail to take into account is the cost of the appeals associated with the life sentence prisioner. You act as if nondeath row inmates don't cost us taxpayers more because they are just happy they aren't being put to death. A life sentence prisioner cost us aprox. $25,000 per year (and rising) plus the cost of a lifetime of appeals. Get the appeals out of the way and put the deserving to death.
What RM95 said. I was being droll. Lock them up and throw away the key, but by all means, make them consider what they've done. Don't let them rationalize it away or bury it. Make them talk about it every single day for the rest of their lives.
Riiiiiight. Tell that to the scum that doesn't care what you want them to join...they just want your valuables or your life...alot of times its both because it eliminates a key witness.
Originally posted by VooDooPope I'm not distorting facts. You sure are if you're asserting that non-death penalty cases and lifetime incarceration are similar in cost to death penalty cases. You are comparing the cost of appeals and trials associated with putting someone to death to just the cost of housing a prisoner. What you fail to take into account is the cost of the appeals associated with the life sentence prisioner. No I'm not, those costs are included in that. You can't imprison someone without giving them a trial. The particular section I put in bold doesn't explain that but the others certainly do.
Have you ever been inside a prision? Know anyone who has? I go visit my cousin 2 times a year and I could tell you some stories about how hellish it is. If you can't prove your innocent in 15 years, you probably aren't. We are putting people to death that are PROVEN guilty, not probably guilty. To see people convicted of heinous crimes against society get the punishment they deserve, and serve as a deterant for those who might think about commiting those same crimes in the future. You live the life of a criminal, you better be prepared to pay the price.
