February 29th slaughterhouse massacre, IDF shoots starving civillians by the hundreds

@ROXRAN this is what I mean by opening your perspectives

 

Sorry nothing Hamas says is credible- Lancet simply copied data : Data for this Correspondence are publicly available from the following sources: Palestinian MoH, WHO, UNRWA, and UN Population Fund.

none of these sources can be independently verified and are based in large part on Hamas - the same people that specifically set out to horrifically kill and mutilate as many Israeli civilians as possible in a 3000 battalion invasion which in effect was a war initiative

 

Douglas Murray is a hero.

 

Do you also reject what the IDF has stated as credible?

IDF officials estimate that 2 civilians are killed for every dead Hamas. The IDF states that 12,000 Hamas fighters have been killed. This would result in ~24,000 dead civilians. Adding 24,000 civilian deaths to the 12,000 Hamas deaths equals a total of 36,000 deaths, which is actually more than the 30,000 deaths reported by the MoH.

Sources:
IDF officials: 2 civilian deaths for every 1 Hamas fighter killed in Gaza | The Times of Israel
IDF says 12,000 Hamas fighters killed in Gaza war, double the terror group's claim | The Times of Israel
Hamas Toll Thus Far Falls Short of Israel’s War Aims, U.S. Says - WSJ

 

That seems pretty stupid on their part. Hard time passing the sniff test on that one.

That being said, Hamas doesn't seem to hesitate to hide behind civilians and other noncombatants anyway. Most anyone fighting an existential holy war would.

This is all so tiring. I'm ready for one side to win so there can be actual peace.

 

It’s pretty standard asymmetric warfare to blend in with civilian populations. The Viet Cong did it, the IRA did it, American revolutionaries did it and the British called them cowards for doing so. Heck even the early Zionists who carried out terrorist attacks against the British would do so.

Hamas will lose this battle and will lose again and again. They cannot militarily defeat Israel. That doesn’t meant Israel will win and end the threat of Hamas. As long as current policies continue this will happen again and again.

 

The only innocent people here are the civilians that just want to live their life or GTFO of there. I have no sympathy for Hamas or Israel.

These are the times where I lose faith in finding a peaceful solution for anything. Someone just needs to win or someone bigger needs to put their foot down like Nato did in Bosnia.

 

Israel is committing war crimes. Sad to see people defend it.

 

Excusing horrific war crimes is not a good look for you nor @ROXRAN.

Have your views. Have your opinions. But draw the line somewhere. Don't be blind.

 

I'm pretty sure civilians at this point are hoping Hamas are using them as shields lol.

90% of their residential property is either leveled or set for destruction by the IDF because they've been condemned.

The excuse of human shields is long over. It's an ethnic cleansing where he debate is whether it's veering towards a genocide or not.

We still using the human shields bs excuse?

 

Yeah - this is something that was really brought home from the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The IDF are well trained and have pretty good US weaponry and motivated soldiers. They will win battle after battle. They will eliminate the obvious HAMAS in Gaza and likely the WB as well.

The problem is that isn’t the end. Israel is surrounded by Arabic Islamic countries. The Arabic nations have far stronger population growth. There will always be more HAMAS, even if they are called something else… and they will come from Jordan, Libya, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, UK and Indonesia…. and it will not stop. At some point you need diplomacy.

I personally suspect Israel wants to get Gaza and the WB and fill it with Israeli Jews and build huge walls… deal with Muslim hatred for 70-80 years and attempt to normalize relations in places like Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and hope it simmers down in Iran and Iraq.

I personally think we are headed towards a 20-30 year period of less involvement in the region…. And Iran will basically control Iraq and pressure Jordan. The USA will continue helping Jordan, Kuwait, etc.

 

A lot of the Palestinians left are old, women and children. From what I have been told a lot of them are sick of everyone that has played a hand in the current war… that includes Israel, Hamas and the West. As Fatima told me last week, “Everyone forgets we are real people.”

 

Ya Palestinians don't believe their home deserves to be leveled because the 200 unit apartment building they lived in had one Hamas admin clerk living in one of those units.

Nook you should know by now that the existence of Hamas is used to dehumanize Palestinians. Any justification for things like ethnic cleansing campaigns is essentially "but what about Hamas".

 

And why is that so?

Is it because hatred of Jews is inherent in Islam since its founding by a pedophile warlord who already murdered many Jews? Why would we just accept that as a given? Isn't it on Islam to reform itself? Rather than expecting Israel and the Jews to just allow themselves to be slaughtered? They are fighting back, and the Muslims and leftists are whining about it.

Yes - and there has been progress - with the UAE, even with the Saudis. That's partly why the "Palestinians" did what they did when they did it, on October 7th. Hamas were desperate to keep the spiral of hatred and violence going, because it's their sole raison d'être.

But Israel will crush Hamas, and will demilitarize Gaza. Muslims and leftists will whine about "genocide". But Israel will help build up Gaza again. But without the horrible indoctrination in kindergartens and schools that has been happening.

Then Israel will make peace with the surrounding nations. There will still be attempted terror attacks.

But first, Hamas must be eradicated. For good.

It's painful, but it needs to be done.

 

In any oppressed group exists rebels - and rebels don’t fight by perceived rules of engagement because they are rebels.

Having said that - there is so little nuance in these discussions when it involves people that are culturally different or on the surface more different.

My wife’s best friend (before he finally died of his disease) was the son of a man that did prison time for being an active member of the IRA and assisting in the murder of people. My wife’s friend said to the day he died that he supported the cause of the IRA and felt all of their actions, including supporting Hitler were justified. Everyone loved him and white people would even tell him they agreed with him.

Now I ask you - if he were Arab and a Muslim and said he supported to Mudjadin - would these same people think his dad was “cool”? Of course not.

As like Ireland - those in Gaza are all over the map in their beliefs, and having sympathy for a cause or understanding it doesn’t necessarily mean you support their actions.

There are genuine issues between Jews and Arab Muslims - and even resentment in many cases —— but the overwhelming majority of those in Gaza just want and wanted a better life, we are people before all else … and the old people, the mothers, the children - they want to live in peace and not worry about what Hamas or the IDF think of them.

There is a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings about the “ordinary” people in that part of the world. There are lots of very loving and hardworking people that by circumstance live in literal hell on earth.

 

I won’t argue with you that there are many Arabs in the Middle East that dislike and even have Israeli’s and Zionists. That is factual - and the Middle East through religion and culture have been taught in many cases that the region is only for Muslims and should be ruled by Islamic principles.

I would point out that there are Zionists that want the same thing, that Israel is only for Jews and should be ruled on Jewish religious principles and support using any force for that to be inevitable - including the oppression of Palestinians in the WB and Gaza.

As for Islam reforming - there are many things in Islam that I believe need reforming, but none of the actions being taken will lead to reformation.

I have no doubt that Israel can level Gaza and the WB - but it isn’t going to stop violence. There will still be terrorist attacks and there will still be people in the Middle East that will be angry and support causes to harm Israel.

The best bet at long term peace is diplomacy. When you push a group of existing people off land and not destroy them all, there will be efforts to take that land back in the short term.

The “successes” in the Middle East have not been primarily from military invasion.

We will see what happens - it’s a dirty business all the way around.

 

Izrael is pretty much unleashed pitbull with rabies in someone else backyard,

no matter how you feel about your dog,or claim how harmless its .... someone is going to try to send it back to you in shoes box