Max summed it up best. I'm glad you haven't had to experience it. Considering my mother has worked with abused women and girls for longer than you've been alive, I'll assume you've just been lucky.
NEWSFLASH . . .people kill those nearest to them. ie that is ya most crimes happen within the same Groups of people. this is KERMIT D Frog. ALSO since the statement made was: THE WORSE THING FOR A WOMAN WAS TO BE NEAR A MAN. . . . what killed the other 74% of these women . .. uhm. . . more men i guess. Rocket River
I'd love to join in more on this debate, but right now I have the upper and lower intake off of my car and I'm getting ready to jump to the heads. I don't have time to look for studies or stats, but how many men would actually report that their wife/gf was abusing them. Honestly...how about harrassing. In society's eyes, men are supposed to just take it. Did anyone see the movie "Men Don't Tell"? I never laid a finger on my now-ex wife in seven years of marriage, but i have fingernail scars on my arm, I was hit in the arms too many times to count, I was stabbed in the hand with a fork (which I went to sleep without bandaging it up and bled all over the covers) and had an exacto knife held a few inches from my nose. Did I call anyone? No. Did I tell anyone? No. I'm telling you guys because I'm anonymous here. Even though we should, men do not report these things.
Good point. I stand corrected. But does the fact that there are abusive men mean that a man shouldn't have a say in his fatherhood? Isn't that what this thread is about? If my wife became pregnant and had an abortion I'd be scarred for life. Nobody seems to care about that though. I wish somebody would reconcile that...or are the emotions of men irrelevant?
I know I sound very biased, and this is definitely not the case in every relationship. Most relationships last until death do them part without a hand ever being raised in anger, but some relationships, for whatever reason, turn south, and in these instances, I would venture to say that the numbers of abuse victims, while probably not equal, would definitely surprise some people in terms of the women assaulting the men. Whatever the case, I don't think you should EVER strike your spouse, for whatever reason.
The main reason we don't report these things is that it does make us look like sissies to others. "Oh your wife can beat you up? You're a loser" I hate it when girls hit you, then they'll say something like boys aren't allowed to hit girls. It's bull**** they're allowed to abuse us but we are condemed for even yelling.
I understand your position, Refman. It can seem like men don't have a say in the matter and that's not always fair. I wish every child could be born into a family with a mother and father who want the child and who love each other. The problem here is biology -- it is only the woman who can carry the child for nine months and give birth. The problem we run into is that we are asking a woman to allow the law to decide what is to be done with her body. Pregnancy is by no means easy. It takes a huge toll both physically and emotionally. To force a woman to carry an unwanted child to term could have pretty serious ramifications for both her and the child. I also wonder if the legal system is prepared to treat expectant mothers as potential criminals. There are many methods (herbs, pill combos etc...) of aborting a fetus that don't involve a trip to Planned Parenthood. Would police investigate miscarriages as potential crimes? Would this woman have been under virtual house arrest to ensure she didn't do anything that could endanger her child? It's hard to say where to draw the line. Until the day comes when children can regularly be "grown" outside of a woman's body (it's almost here), we're going to have to work with the fact that the woman's rights always play into the abortion debate. It can't be any other way. I would be willing to bet that 95% of committed couples who decide together to have children never have to deal with these issues. This seems to happen mostly to people whose relationships have already devolved into mean-spirited fighting and attempts to hurt each other.
What about the Gov telling me what to do with my money [ala Child Support]? Rocket River gov says alot about what you can and cannot do with ya body
Mrs. JB-- I understand what you are saying and it is a real problem. All I'm saying is that there is a party here (the father) who has no thought given to his rights, desires and expectations. It is insensitive. There may not be a good solution. But the expectant father's emotions and expectancies should not be ignored.
From your post, I gather that you would allow an abortion in the 9th month of pregnancy? Since you said you don't want the law to decide "what is to be done with a woman's body", I would assume a 9th-month abortion would be okay with you. Am I wrong? It's still her body in the 9th month, right?
Under the "it's her body" line of thought, does that mean that she should be allowed to smoke crack while pregnant? It's her body. How about when she's not pregnant? Does this mean that crack should be legal? I'm really not trying to be flippant...I'm just carrying that argument out to its logical conclusion.
Freak, we both know you're just looking for a reason to argue with someone. The hysterical tone of your post suggests that even you don't believe what you're asking me. In fact, I didn't say "I don't want the law to decide what is to be done with a woman's body." I just gave a honest response to Refman from my point of view. And, honestly, the problem we run into is that abortion involves a woman's body. Until we stop the histronics and start speaking rationally with one another about this, nothing will ever be resolved.
Mrs. JB-- I totally understand what you are saying. Being a man, I will never be pregnant so it is hard for me to say what should be done. I have my own convictions about abortion...but they're not relevant here. All I'm saying is that if we are going to have abortion to protect a woman's rights, then there needs to be some avenue to protect the father's rights as well. I hope I'm expressing myself well. Hopefully a system that is fair to everybody can be developed...I'm just not sure what it would be. I do know that the current system is not adequate.
Sorry for the tone....I really did want an answer, and realized after I typed my 'question' that it probably didn't deserve a serious one. I happen to think all the "woman's body" talk does constitute histrionics though, just as words like "pro" and "anti-choice" do (I don't even use 'pro-life' either...anti-abortion is more accurate). The fact is the law DOES decide what a woman can do with her body (men too), and no one has a problem with it. By not allowing third trimester abortions, the law is controlling what women can do with their bodies, flat out. I know you said you didn't mean "you didn't want the law to decide what to do with a woman's body", but that's just what I think when I hear those words. Aaah, abortion...what a fun topic.
Jeff, that statement about "being next to a man is one of the most dangerous things a woman can do" is a severe exaggeration. I understand that those are some horrible stats and that your mother deals with some terrible people in her job but perhaps that exposure has jaded you a bit? I happen to know many people, many male, who are not all that dangerous. And I dont think its because I am "lucky". I honestly believe that there are more civilized people than psychos out there. I bet I could list many many things I think would be more dangerous than being next to a man, for example: 1. Driving a car 2. Smoking 3. Chronic abuse of alcohol or drugs 4. Eating nothing but crap food 5. Playing Russian Roulette.... etc Of course you could manipulate any of those.... "Hey...she was smoking NEXT TO A MAN" "Hey....she drove drunk and there was a MAN in the car" I'm not trying to downplay your stats, they are tragic, but come on, stop the hating of your own gender. Some of us are rather safe to be around.
Do we really have any business guessing about this? In a capital trial, we have to convict the accused <b>beyond the shadow of a doubt</b>, but we will kill unborns because it fits our belief system. Isn't that kind of incongruous... in a major way?!?
This is a terrible, terrible topic. One of the few I can't just get all the way on one side of. In other words, while I'm stridently pro-choice, I actually understand the arguments of the other side and the passion behind them. Mrs. JB is so right on here. Refman's got a valid point too. And regardless of their understanding of each others' points, the two cannot be reconciled. Someone will make the final decision whether or not a fetus will be carried to term. And if it's the courts, they may not actually have the final say. When abortion was illegal, it still happened -- just in far less safe or sanitary conditions. One of the toughest issues out there. In the case of unwanted pregnancies, everyone loses. Every time. No woman wants to have an abortion. It's important to remember this. It's very difficult both physically and emotionally. And then there's the problem of unwanted children -- some raised by parents who didn't want them, some in foster homes and, of course, the lucky ones who go to loving homes, but who may still always wonder why they were given up for adoption. I got an ex-girlfriend pregnant when I was in college. We'd broken up a year earlier and wound up together for one night only. We used protection, but it broke. When we found out, it was too late. I would have done anything she asked and told her so. Would have married her and raised the child, had joint custody, paid child support or just paid for the abortion, going with her if she wanted me to, staying home if she didn't. I made it clear that I'd have really liked it if she had the baby, but that I recognized it was her choice, that I knew she'd think it through and I knew the decision would weigh heavily on her either way. She elected to have the abortion and didn't want me involved. It was tremendously hard on me, but I respected the decision had to be hers. And there's no way it was as hard on me as it was on her. No solutions here and no hypotheses. Just sharing one sad story. There are, when it comes to this subject, sadder ones. I think it's important here not to demonize either side of this argument and to recognize the sensitivity of the issues at stake. But, in the end, I don't believe anyone but the mother can make this decision. I respect the feelings of those who feel otherwise.
