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[FASCISM]Bush can now, legally, declare Martial Law in the U.S.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by thadeus, Oct 29, 2006.

  1. weslinder

    weslinder Member

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    Two comments:
    1. This law does not allow government any more power than it ever has. It just takes power of Governors and duplicates it for the President. It is not a move toward fascism, as virtually every executive of any unified country has the same power. It is just removing another remnant of Federalism.
    2. This law is in response to the inability of Louisiana to manage Katrina response. So anyone showing opposition would be painted as wanting poor response to natural disasters.
     
  2. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    While this law does further empower the executive branch -- something I am not a big fan of, since I believe in a smaller federal government and prefer that most issues be left to individual states -- I fail to see how it moves America that much closer to full-blown fascism.

    Regardless, you can blame Katrina for this...
     
  3. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    Did you read the sections of the law mentioned in the article? It gives the President the power to take over all troops stationed in the United States and do what he wants with them. It's not 'duplicating' the power of governors - it is overriding their power. This law repeals The Posse Comitatus Act, and changes the Insurrection Act - laws that had to do with what the president was allowed to do, and what he was forbidden from doing, with military forces inside states. The President does not need permission from local or state governments, nor even Congress (he just has to 'notify' them).

    It's not in response to the inability of Louisiana - it's in response to Louisiana's refusal to allow Bush to take control of the National Guard troops stationed in Louisiana. Maybe that would have helped, but having FEMA down there would have helped too.

    But, even if this is the case (and I suppose it could be), the wording of the law expressly states that a national emergency is whatever the President determines it to be. The declaration of emergency itself has no oversight other than the President's say so.

    This law puts a ton of power in the hands of a single individual, and there are no checks built into the law - none with any teeth. Under this law, a President could declare an emergency in any situation, then call up troops from anywhere in the United States, and send them anywhere in the United States, and let them use any tactics at their disposal to "suppress, in a State, any insurrection."

    Read the text of the law again if you doubt me. Keep in mind - this is a LAW. It's real. And there is NO PROVISION to check the President's power.

    And that is why I call this a step towards fascism.
     
  4. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    wow man you made some great points
     
  5. rhester

    rhester Member

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    Every American should see this movie.

    link
     
  6. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    I haven't heard about this movie until now (and the thread) but I may go see it. The problems I see with it, already, are that some of the contentions are going to make it very easy for critics to breezily dismiss them as 'conspiracy theory' (quick, act like nothing's wrong!). I'm not saying that their contentions are outlandish (I don't know all of them yet), but that they run counter to official explanations just enough that people who don't want to consider them will feel justified in saying, "Oh, jeez, that's just conspiracy theory" and then in never thinking about those issues again.

    Particularly in this thread, I hoped to counter the types of people who favor that sort of dismissive argument by providing a clear account of a real law - but none of those people have really responded.

    Ah well. Maybe we're gonna have to be Cassandra.
     
  7. rhester

    rhester Member

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    The movie is good. It spends way too much time on the IRS, but at the last it covers the executive orders that you don't hear about that have already put in place the opportunity for a fascist state.

    It is not a conspiracy movie, no conspiracy is implied. It is more of a 'hey, I didn't know that is going on' type movie.

    You would profit by seeing it. It is at the Angelika.
     
  8. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    Oh, I'm not saying that I necessarily believe it's conspiratorial rhester. I'm saying that the movie is only going to appeal to those types of people who already believe that such a thing could happen/is happening.

    I tend to believe that an actual analysis of the laws, using the text of the law itself, is something that's more difficult to dismiss (and I believe the content of this movie will make it too easy to dismiss for those who would rather not believe that a dangerous centralization of power, in the hands of a single individual/office, is occurring. But I don't believe that means the movie is wrong.)

    I would be happy for lots of people to see this movie, as there needs to be more public discussion of this sort of political consolidation, and more media attention.
     
  9. rhester

    rhester Member

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    You're right about that. There were few people (about 35) in the theatre the night I saw it. So there is very low appeal for the movie probably.

    You would be very interested in the executive orders that were shown in the film. An actual analysis of those orders might raise some hairs on some heads.
     
  10. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
    - Henry Kissinger
     
  11. Rockets Dynasty

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    The leading experts on Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, and Hitler in Germany spent years analyzing how those fascist regimes operated and came to power. They discovered that all 3 shared these same EXACT 12 traits. There are only known to be four nations in history that these 12 traits, Franc's Spain, Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany, and Bush II's USA. Currently the USA is the only nation on earth that has all 12 traits. The US lacked #11, but now with this new law has all 12.

    In order for a country to be deemed fascist by actual historical context (in other words not just some politician or pundit saying so) it MUST mee these 12 traits, and also it must basically be entriely controlled by these 12 traits, meaning these are basically the sole characteristics that define the nation.



    The 12 Traits of Fascism

    1. Exuberant nationalism

    Fascist regimes make constant use of patriotic images, slogans, flags, and symbols.

    National flags are seen everywhere in public display. Territorial aggression is explained to be mere destiny -- an unbidden greatness thrust upon the nation by history. The nation's destiny and right under God to secure the land it has within its own border and to eradicate the people within that land that get in the way.

    It is this burden of unique responsibility that now raises the fascist state above all previous constraint, no longer bound by international obligations, treaties or law.

    AMERICA = CHECK

    2. Enemies Identified

    This national cause is identified as unity against enemies - The people are rallied around a unifying patriotism directed against "common threats", which in fascist regimes are identified specifically as the following: "communists", "liberals", racial, ethnic or religious minorities, "intellectuals", homosexuals, "terrorists", and political "dissenters."

    The state's message is sometimes couched in an easily recognized religious theme. Amazingly, this language is used even when the full context of the teaching shows the meaning to be diametrically opposed. The more devout and outspoken the individual citizenry is about their own faith, the more their worship of the state is expressed and the more opposed their political views are with the actual teachings and philosophies of their religion.

    Dissent is labeled "siding with the enemy," "a sign of weakness," and "unpatriotic," and is therefore "treasonous."

    AMERICA = CHECK

    3. Rights Disappear

    Disdain for human and political rights - Fascist regimes foster an artificial climate of fear by intentionally amplifying stress and anxiety and by constantly trumpeting up the threat of an attack from an outside invader which is almost always referred to simply as "terrorists," but is also some times called "communists." Citizens naturally feel a strong need for security and are easily persuaded to ignore police and government abuses of power against individual rights in the name of safety. The few still willing to question are met with bullying and smear campaigns of intimidation as well as the threat of losing their jobs.

    Legislative bodies are cowed into rubber-stamp submission with occasional ceremonial opposition. Typically, the legislative bodies will not even read laws before pssing them. The judiciary tends to become activist in support of state views, and judges that do not are labeled to be "activist judges" that are "acting outside the common bounds of the law." The public often looks away, or even enthusiastically approves as rights are stripped away, usually under the guise of "anti-terror" legislation or "security measures."

    The concept of the individual inevitably yields ground, exchanged for the promised safety of the all-powerful state, they general belief being that "only the state can protect you."

    AMERICA = CHECK

    4. Secrecy Demanded

    Obsession with secrecy and national security - The workings of government become increasingly hidden. Questioning of authority is discouraged at all levels of society. The press is bullyied into submission and when they refuse legislation is passed dubbing anyony leaking secret internal documents as a "traitor," "conspirator," and "terrorist."

    From office talk at the water cooler up through the entire apparatus of rule, guarded speech and secrecy become ends in themselves. Citizens that dissent to this are branded to be "unpatriotic," and to be "liberal nutcases."

    Troubling questions are muted and entire areas of scrutiny are placed out of bounds by simply invoking "national security".

    AMERICA = CHECK

    5. Military Glorified

    Supremacy of the military - The military establishment receives a disproportionate share of government resources, even as pressing domestic needs are neglected. The state tends to be in a dire financial state, with tremendous national debt, yet the vast majority of the nation's GDP and tax money goes to funding the war machine. Individual soldiers, mercenaries, trained assassins and military culture are glamorized and made constantly visible and are labeled "heroes," and "spreaders of faith, peace, love, and democracy."

    This provides both an object for public glorification, as well as sharp warning to possibly restless citizens that the power of the state stands close at hand, ready to use its great potential for violence.

    AMERICA = CHECK

    6. Corporations Shielded

    Corporate power is protected - Typically, a segment of the business elite plays the major role in bringing fascists to national leadership, often from an unsavory obscurity. This marriage of big money and raw violence is often considered by historians to be the hallmark and backbone of fascism. Rampant corruption, lobbying, and cronysim become the hallmark of both "big business," and the "ruling party."

    As these business-government-military interests meld, the significant threat of organized labor is clearly recognized. Labor unions and their support organizations are either co-opted successfully by mobs and gangs or ruthlessly suppressed and eliminated as soon as possible.

    AMERICA = CHECK

    7. Corruption Unchecked

    Rampant cronyism and corruption - Fascist states maintain power through this relatively small group of associates, mutually appointing each other to interlocking and rotating positions in government, business and the military.

    With this degree of control, they make full use of both official secrecy and the ready threat of state violence to insulate themselves from any meaningful criticism.

    They are not accountable and are shielded from scrutiny in a way unthinkable in a democratic society. When clear evidence of crimes becomes public a "fall guy," or "fall guys" will be set up to take the fall.

    AMERICA = CHECK

    8. Media Controlled

    Controlled mass media - Sometimes the media are controlled directly by clumsy government functionaries. At other times, sympathetic corporate media insiders shape the themes indirectly, and therefore more skillfully. In other instances political leaders also have ownership and/or family members in control of major media. The entire media is controlled at the top by a mere handful of people whom all share the same fascist belief system that "99 percent of the populace will believe whatever you tell them." Image regularly trumps content as the "news" is presented breathlessly and with flashy stage effects. Typically, "news" is related to celebrity gossip, sports outcomes, weather, updates on the states' current wars, and phony and falsified economic reports.

    A practiced formula of tenacious repetition brings even the most absurd lie into acceptance over time. By design, the very language itself and the coloration employed will push alternate views "out of the mainstream."

    The terms of any remaining debate are narrowly defined to the states' advantage, making it easy to marginalize a truly differing perspective. Censorship and "self-censorship," especially in wartime, is common. Political leaders that protest the state line are branded "traitors," "communists," "liberals," and "anti-state."

    AMERICA = CHECK

    9. Rampant Sexism

    Rampant sexism - Governments of fascist states tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Traditional gender roles are made even more rigid and exaggerated.

    Condemnation of abortion and a virulent homophobia are commonly built into broad policy. The more fervent the individual citizen is in towing the state line, the more he or she will be homophobic and anti-abortion.

    AMERICA = CHECK

    10. Intellectual Bullying

    Disdain for intellectuals - Fascist societies create an environment of extreme hostility to critical thought in general, and to academics in particular, especially those in high level fields of study and in high ranking positions in widely known and respected universities.

    Ideologically driven "science" is elevated and lavishly funded, while any expression not in line with the state view is at first ignored, then ridiculed, then challenged, and finally stamped out. Ultimately, the ideals of "creationism," totally replace any and all references to science in the schools at all levels of educational and vocational apptitudes.

    It is not uncommon for academics to be pressured to attack the work of their insufficiently patriotic peers. Writings are censored; teachers are fired and arrested. Free artistic expression in new works is openly attacked, and existing works deemed unpatriotic are often publicly destroyed. Also students and teachers are strongly encouraged to report any other students or teachers that say anything or write anything that criticises the government. The media will then run a smear attack against these so-called "enemies of the state."

    AMERICA = CHECK

    11. Militarized Police

    Obsession with crime and punishment - Fascist society will overlook police abuses and goverment over steps of power and forego civil liberties in the name of "patriotism," "national security," and "personal protection." Long jail sentences for clearly political offenses, torture and then assassination are at first uncomfortably tolerated, and then start to pile up to become the norm. The media will be inundated with images of political prsioners being raped, abused, and tortured. They will be called "terrorists," "dissenters," and "evil-doers." Legislation will be passed without the legislators even reading it that will remove civil liberties and freedoms under the veil of "national security reform." This always occurs after a "terrorist" attack occurs in one of the nation's biggest cities. The "terrorists" responsible are always immediately identitfied and dead within literally minutes of the "outside" attack.

    Often a national police force is given virtually unlimited power to snoop through the civilian population. Networks of surveillance and informers are employed, both for actual intelligence gathering and also as a means to keep neighbors and coworkers isolated and mistrustful of each other. New divisions of the governement are formed for the specific purpose of spying on the citizenry. These new arms of the government are called "Homeland" security sections.

    NOW WITH THIS NEW LAW SIGNED BY BUSH AMERICA = CHECK

    12. Elections Stolen

    Fraudulent elections - In the disordered time right as the ruling fascist party rises to power, the electoral arena becomes increasingly confusing, corrupted, and manipulated. Constant barrages by the media of political "partisanship," and "split-national opinion" occur. Specifically right before fascism arises, a national election will be rigged and/or stolen and will cause a massive upheaval in the nation's political process. This will be highlighted by an extreme hatred of the opposition political party which was fraudulently defeated.

    Within a short period of time the party that actually won the election is reduced to nothing but mere lap dogs and yes men. Those in the public or media that dare ask questions about the many odd election results will be immediately and severely attacked economically, politically, and with relentess smear campaigns in the media and relentless threats from local neighbours and police.

    There is rising public cynicism and distrust over what are widely believed to be phony elections manipulated by moneyed influence, obvious media bias, smear campaigns, ballot tampering, racial unfairness in voting rules, poor access for the poor to vote, judicial interference, intimidation, police and thug brutishness, or outright assassination of potential opposition.

    Once the fascists are then in power following their first rigged and/or stolen election victory, they then use this disorder and the poodle media as the rationale to delay elections indefinitely, or to use the media to make threats that if the losing party wants to question the vote or have a drawn out recount, that they are "fostering political hatred," and "holding up the mandated new authority of the current ruling party" by delaying the workings of the legislatures.

    AMERICA = CHECK
     
  12. Burzmali

    Burzmali Member

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    Please don't re-post chain e-mails please, k thx.
     
  13. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    I generally avoid those sorts of things for being too inflammatory.

    But, what do you think of the original law? (linked in the original article and quoted in my post above)
     
  14. Burzmali

    Burzmali Member

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    I'm not planning to rebel against the government anytime soon. So, I couldn't care less. It seems to me like this eliminates some potential inefficiency, like the example you mentioned about Katrina and the National Gaurd.

    Do you think that if a Democrat wins the presidency in '08 he/she will repeal this law?
     
  15. rhester

    rhester Member

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    No!

    Democrats do the same thing Republicans do,
    What they are told.
     
  16. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    No, as I pointed out earlier, these laws don't get repealed - the government has been establishing 'emergency' powers, and keeping them, ever since FDR. I also pointed out that, when this law was a bill, it passed the Senate with unanimous consent. So don't paint me with that brush - I'm not a supporter of either party, and my attention to this isn't based on some idiotic right/left agenda. This, in my opinion, is something that should be a concern for American citizens - not just in itself, but because it's part of a trend that has been escalating since the formation of the Republic. The United States is not going to be around forever, but it's going to be around for much less time if we allow the politicians to constantly undermine the very foundations of the formation of our country.

    This is the one excuse that bugs me though: "I'm not planning on rebelling anytime soon." Maybe you're not. Maybe none of us are. But, do people really plan to rebel or do they wait until the restrictions on their liberties get so odious and damaging that they feel forced to do so? This law is on the books now - and from this point forward, the office of President will always have this power. Maybe you're not worried about the current president - but what about the next one? what about the one after that? and the next? Who's to say that we won't have a President in the near future who regularly finds it 'necessary' to station military troops in cities in order to crack down on dissent against his power?

    What if you live in a state that, for example, resists a Federal edict to allow a build-up of military forces in the capital city because of a perceived threat, or refuses a federal law to allow for confiscation of certain items? What happens when your state resists? Even if you stay in the house, what happens if your neighbors resist? You may not agree with them - but you're there.

    The Posse Comitatus Act has a long history, and it was the last legal check on a President's power to deploy national troops within the country without the consent of either Congress of the state government where they action takes place. Those checks existed for a reason. The formation of the republic was based on the idea that government naturally devolves toward tyranny, and that's why there are so many checks on the powers of each office - that's why we have three branches of government and popular elections in the first place - - to prevent too great a consolidation of power in the hands of an individual office.

    Maybe there are cases where it would be more efficient (although that's hardly been proven in the case, Katrina, used to justify this law). But there are plenty of measures that would allow for more efficiency in governing that contradict the fundamental statutes of U.S. law, and not just the laws, but the ideas that those laws were created to support.

    I am trying to convince you that this is, in fact, a big deal. We need these impediments to consolidated power to remain in place if we're going to have a stable country. You may always support the President, always agree with his policies - but will that matter if the country becomes destabilized in massive power grabs? If it severely disrupts the economy and the functioning of public facilities? For all the 'efficiency' that allegedly results from measures like this, we lose something far, far more important.
     
  17. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

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    The Republicans and Democrats report to the same master, the Federal Reserve.
     
  18. rhester

    rhester Member

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    If Americans woke up to this and we took control away from the banker/industrialist 90% of the problems in the nation could be solved.
     

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