Farmer's Branch Out on a Limb

Admit it, you don't really care about the illegals. You just want the cheap labor -- regardless of the sweat, hardships and unjust conditions -- so you can "keep inflation low."[/QUOTE]

I think Sishar is one of the few people on this bbs that really cares about the poor and needy, check his work for Katrina and other victims of disasters.

 

I agree that the best way to improve the situation is to make the other country wealthier, could someone point out why is Mexico so not a much wealthier country? I really do not know the main reasons for that.

 

I'm sorry if this is harsh but I don't think you understand macro economics.

Development cannot occur without some transfer of capital at the same time development creates capital. If you have poor countries with little capital they can't develop. With capital they have a chance to develop and improve their standard of living reducing the need to work in other countries. At the sametime as their standard of living rises they become a potential market for our own products and services.

Its not a zero sum game.

When did I ever say they did it out of altruism?

I stated specifically that China and other countries fund our debts because it helps their economies. They are export driven countries if our economy collapses due to a credit crunch it hurts them. We can argue about how long this is sustainable but that is what's going on and its not new. For that matter following WWII we poured tons of aid and took on the debt of European countries rebuilding from WWII with the hope of both keeping them from collapsing into Communism and to build up markets for our own products.

The question is though what social services are needed? Should we deny illegals emergency health care so if they get hurt they are dying in the streets or if they get sick they turn into incubators and spreaders of disease? Should we deny illegals drivers licenses and instead just have them drive around unregulated which they will do anway? Should we deny their kids basic education so they grow up to become and embittered illiterate underclass? I'm not talking about giving the welfare or Medicare but there are some basic services that should be met for our sake to have a stable and relatively secure society.

Illegal aliens are a fact of our society and to maintain stability some level of social services have to be provided.

I'm flexible about the details of a guest worker program and while I think it would be great if they went back and built their own countries am not that troubled by anmesty. This country was founded by immigrants and unless you are a native American your parents / ancestors and mine are immigrants. Immigration has always beneffited this country in terms of economic and social vitality.

Well do you want to pay $6 a pound for produce? Of course I want inflation low but you seem hung up on this idea of hardship and sweat shops because you don't understand economics. Its not a zero sum game in fact keeping them illegals is the biggest hurdle to improving working conditions. As long as someone is illegal the employer can always hold the fear of deportation over the workers. If they aren't illegal then they can openly negotiate for market value wages. As for hardship its that we don't make it easy for people to come in why there people are risking their lives of being exploited by coyotes.

As I said this problem has many similarities to the drug war and one of the biggest similarities is that the illegality of it means that criminals benefit the most.

 

Your tough love solution though is economically unfeasible and causes more pain than helps. You're not only hurting our economy but condemning the people who would have come here to remain in poverty in their own countries.

Exactly we did but just pumping aid money isn't enough. That's why we have backward debt ridden montrosities like most of Africa. The best way to build up developing countries economies is through market based movement of capital. That includes people. For most of the 20th C. Ireland lost population as it was mired in poverty. Money sent back to it from the expatriot community helped keep it afloat and when Ireland joined the EU and could take advantage of the open market it was in position to develop. Now many of the Irish diasporia are returning to Ireland and taking the knowledge they've learned from other countries to build Ireland into one of the strongest economies in Europe. China has a similar experience with the Chinese diasporia. Since China has opened many Chinese are returning to China and bringing both capital and expertise.

The problem with saying that we are going to erect barriers against immigration, illegal and otherwise, but instead pump aid into other countries is that it doesn't address economic realities and is unsustanable. The only way for a country to sustainably develop is to provide a good or service that is needed by other countries rather than depend on handouts. If Mexico can offer cheap labor and we can offer money for that labor why not let them do so? We get cheap labor and they get capital. Its a win win..

 

The Marshall and Macarthur plans were more political self interest than economic altruism. They don't apply today. Look at Iraq.

 

^ No problem and appreciate your comments.

 

I completely agree they weren't done out of altruism. We were afraid that if their economies couldn't develop they would slide into Communism. At the same time though it was recognized that building strong European economies would also benefit our economy.

Altruism is good but unsustainable and for all of its faults a capitalistic system is still the best way of creating wealth whether between people or countries. My own view of attempts to stop illegal immigration is creating an artificial barrier to the movement of a market resource. Its difficult to stop because there is both the supply and demand and by cracking down on it it forces it underground where it is unregulated and feeds a black market.