glynch: Headlines are meant to attract readers. I'd like to see the text of his remarks. shanna: no I don't. He wasn't being provocative he was being descriptive of a condition that he sees descending over America. As his critic, you find it provocative but it is not generally inflammatory. Falwell says he was having a theological discussion yet it's reporting by the "fair and unbiased media" was as if it were a political roundtable. For the record I am not a supporter of Falwell. I've never given him a nickel. I've seen him on Politically Incorrect where he always performs with great articulation and good humor. I do admire the guy-- even if I don't agree with him down to every split hair.
shanna -- that's what concerns me most , I think...that other people will misconstrue his statements to mean, "let's all go beat up gay people!!" That's a problem.
Outlaw, Let me clarify my last remark. I am not saying that I think that homosexuals are as big or bigger threat than terrorists. I am saying the "perceived" problem of homosexuality is a tough issue to talk about just like the issue of how to end/fight terrorism. Don't be looking to jump to conclusions like that especially not now in this time. Yes, I probably should have done a better job of relaying my thoughts, but since you are homosexual, I wonder how much you were ready to jump on any little comment and try to use it against me. Congratulations, except for one problem--I said this at the end of my post and it was bolded: "Once again, although I do not agree with their lifestyle, I am not against rights for gays. I just wanted to share a different viewpoint about homosexuality." So, why didn't you bring that statement up? You didn't want to because you have an axe to grind. I know everybody is on edge right now, hell, I am myself. However, I am not going to let myself be cannon fodder or a punching bag for others here who are subjected to racism and/or discrimination, which I am sorry if there are ignorant people out there doing that to you. Just don't be calling me one.
RichRocket: Beware of sounding condescending. It's annoying and doesn't help your argument. When you open your part in the discussion by "ROTFLMAO" at those that disagree with your opinion, you're not helping anyone but those that find you condescending, annoying, and more than a little dramatic. I don't think anyone is overstating Falwell's position by saying he's blaming others, especially when Falwell used that exact wording. He said he "points the finger at them" and says, "you caused this". Now remind me, how is that not blaming? An opinion and no power? He has the ear of many thousands, perhaps millions of people. How do you justify that position? No, he's not ordering the death of any of those he condemns......but that doesn't mean his influence isn't harmful to those people. Who knows what kind of damage his words have caused, not only in this case but over the years?
You read the newspaper, someone elses second-hand account of the facts. I have read the journal articles. I will start looking to put them together, both for and against. When I have a sufficent body of evidence documented, I'll let you know. I appreciate your position based on what you feel to be the weight of the evidence. I hope that if I can provide you facts to the contrary you will be willing to consider changing your position. Ok, what makes cats attracted to that horrible catterwaling that they do when in heat? I truly doubt that there is any socialogical cat patterning at work. The concept is that natural selection favors those who are attracted to the appropriate sexual clues from the opposite sex. This would make you attracted to something like big breasts. (As a side note, one study indicated a coralation between the amount of testosterone in your blood, and the 'voluptiuousness' you find attractive. The effect was seen in women, relating to muscular development.) These cues can then be refined and altered by socialogical factors, but the basis of the attractant was layed down by example. There are also a series of physiological 'cues' that would be considered mateing cues that men use to determine whether a woman is recepticve to sex. These exist across cultures, and all signify the same things. If I asked you to say what they were, I bet you couldn't, but if I list them for you, and you look for them, I bet you will see that they are true. Anyway, I would like the chance to prove my position for you. I hope that you will examine the evidence with an open mind. Also, I would like to say that as a contrast to Faldwell, take a good hard look at Billy Graham. While I don't agree with most of his positons, I see him as the consumate example for all conservitive evangellical christians to emulate. I respect the man a great deal more than many of the people with whom I agree because he has always remained true to his belief structure. In my opinion, Faldwell has corrupted that same message, and alters his faith to fit his beliefs, not the opposite.
From what I'd read concerning the human genome project, I thought we were learning that sociology was more important than genetics insofar as behavior is concerned. Yes, Billy Graham is a very, very good man.
A common phrase from a racist is always "I'm not a racist or anything, but [insert racist assumption]" They think that being a racist means wearing a white hood and going around burning black churches. The typical statement from the anti-gay christian is always "now, I have gay friends..." Believe me, your 'friends' are tolerating your ignorance as much as you are tolerating their 'sinfulness.' I am an opera singer- well over half of the men I work with, worked with, and went to school with are gay. I have known literally hundreds of gay men, and dozens are friends- real friends, not acquaintances. Nobody chooses to be gay. There is no group so universally prejudiced against as homosexual men, both within sections of a culture and cross-culturally. If you had any slight idea of the smoldering hatred and prejudice that gay men face regularly, you bet your ass they wouldn't choose such a 'lifestyle'. Many face alienation from family and loved ones for life. In many states and cities, it is perfectly legal to fire gays from their jobs and deny them housing. Yessir, gay life is so fantastic they are willing to risk carreer and life for it. Once they made the 'decision' to go gay, man, it's so damned addictive, they just couldn't give it up. If you truly knew any gays, truly knew what they went through growing up, you would know that none of them 'chose' who they are. No, most anti-gay christians don't go around in groups beating up homosexuals with bats. But the ignorance they espouse is not far removed from bigotry, if at all. And then the whole bit about 'I don't judge them, I accept them with love despite their sinfulness' is so insulting. Think about it: "Mike, despite that your brown hair is a sin before God, I still don't judge you- heck, I break the speed limit all the time." If the entire anti-gay Christian communtiy obeyed all the laws laid in Leviticus as fervently as they do the infamous anti-homo line in there, damn, the Taliban would give you a call and offer you Afghani citizenship. And, imagine, some of them are actually going ahead and showing their faces in sunlight, unashamed. How dare they. If they're going to insist on being gay, can't they just at least be ashamed about it and remember that their god-given nature is inherently sinful?
Gascon: my ROTFLMAO was not the beginning of my discussion. It was my observation about the several people who were feebly equating Falwell with Bin Laden. That is laughable. He has influence but not power in the sense that Bin Laden or The Taleban has power, so effectively he doesn't have power. The Taleban is ready to execute two US citizens for handing out Bibles. What has Falwell ever done that is one-thousandth as egregious as that action? I am waiting.... somebody tell us! If it sounds condescending that I won't ignore that kind of huge discrepency then so be it, I'll choose to SOUND condescending rather than BE ignorant.
Nolen, that was the best damn defending of the gay population I have read on this board, and I have read them all! Thanks! Just one point to mention: I do "truly" know one gay man: my brother. I just want to point out that not all gay men have a troublesome past. We had a normal childhood, with loving parents who were always there for us. No alcoholism, no spousal or child abuse, no broken home....just an average family. We grew up, both of us got married, he had one child, I had three. It wasn't till his divorce that he decided to quit fighting the feelings inside that he has had all his life, feelings that told him he was different. Even then he struggled for years, trying to figure out why he was attracted to men his whole life, even during a marriage he knew was wrong. He did not "decide" to be gay. He decided to quit denying that he was gay. Now, he is as happy as he has ever been, and at peace with himself after 35 years of struggle. We cannot point to any one factor in his life that lead to this decision. To me, he is a living example that homosexuality is a genetic makeup, not a social decision. I love you, BRO!.
I, in no way, believe that Falwell is as bad as Bin Laden. I just thought it would be funny to condemn a man to hell who constantly condemns many groups of people to that same place.
What is the point of condemning homosexuality at this time if you are not a homophobe? Is an answer to the origin of this question going to bring one person back, make one child stop crying, console one widow? I wish the religious right could get over themselves for just a minute. Get over yourselves! I have always suspected that men, especially, who are so threatened by gays must have issues that are unresolved, themselves. For Fallwall, and idiots like RichRocket to even ponder the blame of homosexuality in contributing in any way to this disaster is pathetic. Fallwell's hate comes from the same place as Usama Ben Laden's intolerance of the West, women and, indeed, homosexuality. Like bin Laden, Falwell can't accept that people of good faith have and have a right to have different perceptions of the World and God. I wouldn't equate Falwell with Bin Laden, but their mindsets are closer to each other than in relation to most people. And for the record, I can't think of a group of homosexuals who have ever bombed a village, hijacked an airliner, or called for straight people to convert to homosexuality. Can't say the same about Christians, Muslims, or lot of the other so-called chosen people out there. -Elvis
RM95: Falwell doesn't condemn anyone to hell. He may believe that certain folks have chosen a lifestyle that makes hell their future destination but he doesn't condemn them. In fact, his life's work is to assure that they don't go to hell.
Elvis -- homophobe is a nice mean word to use for someone who doesn't happen to think exactly like you on a topic. It's a convenient label to make someone appear to be a bad guy and to make the name-caller appear smarter. It gets us nowhere in furtherance of the truth. Thanks, though. I agree this discussion does not lead us closer to assisting those who were hurt in the tragedy on Tuesday....but it doesn't seem that was the point of the original person who started the thread in the first place. As stated earlier, I am not at all threatened by gays...I have gay friends. But in the end, God demands righteousness. Christ covers us on that one, since all have fallen short of that in God's eyes. The sin of a thousand homosexuals is no worse than my sin, no doubt. My sin alone requires Christ's blood on the cross. But God also calls for repentance from our sins. Sorry if that makes me an extremist for feeling that way. I assure you, I'm not dangerous!! Ottoman -- interesting stuff. Of course I'm open to what you present. But like haven, what I've been reading recently indicates that sociology is a far better indicator of behavior than genetics. What concerns me is that we can justify everything through genetics. There are some people who have very intense desires to have sex with children. They are completely aroused by it. They pass child p*rn over the net, at the risk of significant prison time. Their desires burn, the law notwithstanding. Is that genetic??? If so, do you want me to then condone it?? People are born with alcoholism (or so we hear)....am I to condone the abuse of alcohol?? In the end we make our own decisions in the midst of our personal demons. As one who follows the teachings of Christ and the Bible, you will have a hard time convincing me it's acceptable to Him (though I don't think you plan to try). But I'm certainly open to knowledge (which is still a step down the ladder from wisdom)
tacoma -- wow..did he really say that??? That really discourages me. I hate when people read Revelations and say, "oh, yeah...I know without a doubt what's being said here." huh?? I'm not a genuis...and I haven't been given any special insight by God...but how the hell would he know that the anti-christ will be a Jew?? I see nothing to indicate that at all in the passages about the anti-christ. That's deeply disturbing to me that he would make that connection. Maybe because Jesus was a Jew and thus, the antichrist will rise from the same nation??? That's the only, even remote connection I can make. And it's weak. outlaw -- I don't pretend to have all the answers!! Thanks for answering honestly.
Bingo. MadMax- I want you to know I appreciate your level-headedness in writing on a sometimes volatile subject. I hope I wasn't too accusatory in my last post; I did make a point of not using 'homophobe', as I would agree it too often is used as a P.C. weapon. You bring up a very strong point to me, one that I think about often myself. Most experts agree that many addicts were born genetically pre-disposed to addiction. What if child-molestors are the same- they cannot rid themselves of their desire, despite risk of imprisonment. I bet a strong case could be built that social issues (many were molested as children themselves, and 'act out' their problem) were the main contribution. But let's forget about that to consider this hypothetical situation: what if many 'evil' behaviors are qualities that a human was born pre-disposed with? Murderers, serial killers, rapists, etc. Shall we just accept who they are, because that's 'who they are?' I think the debate of socialization vs. genetics will still rage on no matter how much of the human genome we decode. I think the mystery of Free Will is a pretty damned big one. To me, the only important law given to us by Christ is the law of Love. Child molestors, rapists and killers hurt people- they bring evil to the world, and harm to others. There is nothing evil in gay relationships, certainly no more than in straight relationships. Some can be controlling, or co-dependent, or abusive, but certainly no more than in straight relationships. And some gays may even be killers or child molestors- but still no more than straight people are. Gayness itself is not an evil, and brings no harm to others. They live and love and laugh and cry and suffer heartbreak as we all do. Their lifestyle is offensive to many, but that is entirely their problem- I think Christ could only weep for those who will not/cannot see into the good hearts of others. It's a shame that there is a passage in the bible that condemns homosexuality- but I still find it very convenient that the Christian anti-gay community decides to heavily emphasize one law in Leviticus while completely ignoring dozens of others. Personally, I obviously don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible- I think a simple mortal (anti-gay) man put his own morality in that passage; I feel that homosexuality presents no evil or sin to the eyes of God.
Nolen -- As I said before...the sin of a homosexual man does not separate him from God any more than my sin separates me from Him as well. I am equally sinful. I have fallen short. Thanks for your nice post. There is more than just one passage. Paul, in the New Testament, condemns homosexuality as well. But I'm totally with you...to respond with anything but love for sinners (me, included!!!) is ridiculous. Having said that, I'm not yet ready to respond with love to those sinners who've caused the destruction we've seen this week. My pastor and I talked about it and he suggested I pray the imprecatory psalms...these are the psalms where King David is asking God to smite his enemies for him. He asks God to allow him to bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked. The Bible describes a God who takes you at face value...He says come with all your feelings and all your sin...I love you still. And then He works change in your heart. And you find yourself desiring to love Him back...and Christ said the way to do that is to obey His law.
Question: Is there any chance that GOD 'punished' America BECAUSE of men like Falwell and Phelps? Because 'we' allow them to have a forum and influence? Just a thought.
