Fake Menstrual Blood Used Among Guantanamo Interrogation Techniques

Adding fuel to the fire.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050511/ap_on_re_as/afghan_us_protest

Afghan Protest Over Quran Turns Deadly By STEPHEN GRAHAM, Associated Press Writer
23 minutes ago



KABUL, Afghanistan - Shouting "Death to America," demonstrators angry over the alleged desecration of the Quran at Guantanamo Bay smashed car and shop windows and stoned a passing convoy of U.S. soldiers Wednesday in eastern Afghanistan. Police opened fire on the protesters, killing four and injuring at least 71.

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The U.S. troops fired into the air before quickly leaving the area in Jalalabad, near the Pakistan border, provincial intelligence chief Sardar Shah told The Associated Press. It was the biggest outpouring of anti-American sentiment since the fall of the Taliban in 2001.

Mobs also attacked the Pakistani consulate along with the offices of two U.N. agencies and a Swedish relief organization. No foreigners were reported hurt and witnesses said police and government troops had restored order by early afternoon.

"There is a lot of damage to the city, they have burned a lot of things," Shah said. "These are the enemies of peace and stability in Afghanistan who don't want people to be able to get on with their lives in peace."

U.S. spokeswoman Lt. Cindy Moore said American forces in the area were ordered back to their camps, but she had no information on whether any of them were caught up in the unrest.

Four people were killed and 71 injured, including seven police officers, according to the Interior Ministry. It didn't give more details.

An Associated Press Television News cameraman said the crowds grew larger and wilder after the firing and the streets were deserted of traffic. Mobs pelted a government office and the local television station with rocks and tore down posters of President Hamid Karzai.

The Swedish Committee for Afghanistan, one of the largest aid organizations in the country, said staff at its Jalalabad office took refuge on the roof as a mob stole, smashed or burned their equipment and torched two of their cars.

Murat Khan, Pakistan's deputy counselor, said the consulate building as well as his boss' residence were in flames.

People broke into two U.N. compounds and burned two cars, a U.N. spokeswoman said.

Deputy provincial health chief Mohammed Ayub Shinwari said at least two protesters were shot to death and another 45 were being treated at Jalalabad hospital, three with serious injuries. Another 12 injured were being treated at a university clinic.

Most of the injured were students, he said, adding that many of the injured also suffered gunshot wounds.

University and high school students held similar but peaceful protests in cities in neighboring Laghman province and Khost, further to the south.

The demonstrations began Tuesday, when protesters burned an effigy of President Bush over a report in Newsweek magazine that interrogators at the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, placed Qurans on toilets to rattle suspects, and in at least one case "flushed a holy book down the toilet."

In Washington, the State Department said the allegations of desecration were "certainly serious and it would be important to have them be looked into."

"Obviously, the destruction of any kind of holy book, whether it's a Bible or a Quran or any other document like that, is something that's reprehensible and not in keeping with U.S. policies and practices," State Department spokesman Tom Casey said.

Witnesses said students also demanded the release of all prisoners from Guantanamo, and that "American troops don't stay in Afghanistan forever" — tricky issues likely to be discussed when Karzai meets Bush in Washington later this month.

The government of neighboring Pakistan — like Afghanistan, a conservative Muslim nation and close ally in Washington's war on terrorism — said Saturday it was "deeply dismayed" over the magazine report and called for an inquiry.

A coalition of hard-line Islamic parties in Pakistan said it will hold nationwide protests on Friday, the traditional day of prayer for Muslims.

The United States is holding about 520 people at Guantanamo Bay, many of them al-Qaida and Taliban suspects captured in Pakistan and Afghanistan following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in America.

 

communists, at least in theory, will give you the courtesy of a reach around

 

They are all the same. I deliberately chose the word communist, because it's the scariest and most evil thing to some people. But they don't realize their behaviour and thinking pattern are exactly the same. Let me give you some example. The normal patten is, we find an enemy, who's so evil that's public enemy no. 1. Then we rally the whole nation around a strong leader to fight against that enemy. "Whatever the enemy supports, we must oppose; vice versa. The reason? we'll come up later." "Whatever the enemy does, there is an evil goal behind that, even he just points out that the Sun rises from the East." "Whatever we do against the enemy, as long as it's in the name of the Nation and the People, we are doing the right thing." "If you have sympathy to our enemy, then you are our enemy too." "If you are not with us, you are against us."

Hitler did things in similar pattern, so did Stalin, so did Mao, so did other dictators. Actually, so did Sadam. I am concerned to see some of the political figures and some general opinions in that pattern. In my opinion, any extremists are the same, they are all facists. They act the same, and they will cause the same damage to humanity. When truth and justice and democracy could be violated in "extrem cases" or "national interest", then THAT kind of truth and justice and democracy worth NOTHING.

 

Since both almost inevitably become driven by extremist views that devalue human life and dignity there isn't that much difference.

The main ideological difference is that in their pure forms Communism has no state or leader and everyone lives cooperatively but subject to the will of the whole commune. Fascism the state and leader are all important and everyone is subject to the leader. Economically they aren't that much different since Nazi is short for National Socialist and under a Fascist economic system industry and capital is also nationalized to serve the needs of state and leader.

 

Well, I think communists are fascists in disguise.

There are true communists that live in communes (religious monks etc.) But once it is forced upon others, it is fascist.

 

An excellent point people should really try to understand better. How soon people forget the experience of communist hunt in the 50's. People who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Hopefully we won't be looking back at this period in 50 years and say the samethings.

 

Actually, I don't really think there is any true Communist. The true communist society is Utopie, where no country, army, police exists. Everyone gets everything he/she needs, and everyone behaves well and controls oneself well. It's just against human nature. The so-called communist countries, you are right, they are not true communists.

 

There are only so-called communist in the world because true communist would require people to be against human nature. Only people I could think of that might make good communist are those like mother Teresa, and we all know how many of those exist in the world.

 

I agree that most of these are enemy combatants and probably have vital information but I also think there are so practical considerations.

The first is whether this kind of psychological humiliation works. There's been studies done regarding both physical and psychological torture and often it doesn't seem to work. People will end up being broken and will end up saying anything just to make the torture stop. That leads to a lot of bad intel since the tortured aren't giving accurate info just whatever they think the torturers want. John McCain has talked about that tortured American POW's would admit to anything even if it wasn't true and also make up wild stories while tortured.

The next problem is that we are in a war of hearts and minds and knowledge that we're subjecting prisoners to bizzare and sacriligious torture will only inflame our enemies. Any advantage we gain from torture may be lost by how many more people become pissed off enough at us to strap bombs to themselves. Think about it this way. During WWII there were plenty of stories about how cruelly the Japanese treated POW's. Did that cow US soldiers? That only fired up the Marines even more to take Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

 

From your mouth to uh....god's ears?

Afghan Protest Over Quran Turns Deadly

KABUL, Afghanistan - Shouting "Death to America," demonstrators angry over the alleged desecration of the Quran at Guantanamo Bay smashed car and shop windows and stoned a passing convoy of U.S. soldiers Wednesday in eastern Afghanistan. Police opened fire on the protesters, killing four and injuring at least 71.

The U.S. troops fired into the air before quickly leaving the area in Jalalabad, near the Pakistan border, provincial intelligence chief Sardar Shah told The Associated Press. It was the biggest outpouring of anti-American sentiment since the fall of the Taliban in 2001.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/afghan_us_protest

from another story...

 

Christian fundamentalists denounce sexually provocative acts outside one's marriage to be morally objectionable.

Islamic extremists consider it a sin for men to closely contact women who are not their wives.

George W Bush:"You Are Either With Us Or Against Us in the fight against terror".

Didn't Dubya contradict himself in that christian fundamentalists and islamic extremists have something in common? Is he with or against terrorists on this front?

 

These protests are an example of the reason why torture or tactics like this is worse in the long run. Maybe we got some information, but people who wern't previously hurling stones at our soldiers or willing to want us out of their nation now are. They will be less likely in the future to believe we are acting in their interest, less likely to give info regarding insurgents, resistence groups, and terrorists they might come across, less likely to spread the idea to reticent neighbors that they should buy into the system of govt. we are selling.

We don't know that it saves anyones lives. But even if it did prevent an amush which might kill 2 soldiers because of information gained, it might prolong the war, cause tensions to flare and get countless other soldiers killed, because of riots like this, or future information not handed over to our govt., because a would-be informant now hates the U.S. could cause even more attacks and more death.

Even if I wasn't concerned about the welfare of suspects with aren't POW's or able to be part of the judicial system, it seems bad for our soldiers in the long term.

 

I did: "Yes, some of them have been held unreasonably, but blame that on the enemy who wears no uniform who belongs to no army who seeks that anonymity that makes him undistinguishable from the innocent. We have no choice in my opinion."

love,

Giddyup

 

We can't control the enemy, we can adjust to their tactics. If they do things like that we need to have safguards put in place to help make sure we don't make mistakes like sending innocent folks to other countries to be tortured.

It sounds like you are saying, yes we are making hundreds of mistakes but it isn't our faults and we won't do anything to change that, and will continute to use questionable interrogation tactics if not outright torture even though we know that we make all of these mistakes.

 

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This has nothing to do with extremists. Most muslims who follow the Quran and Sunnah believe in this, as it is mentioned in the quran.

 

No, I said we have no choice. It is our shared responsibility (your word is fault). We share it with the terrorists themselves who designed this dirty game. How do you safeguard against terrorism? I say you rout them out before they can get too insinuated into communities.

 

Replace "some" with "nearly half" for accuracy's sake; and while you might blame it on the enemy who wears no uniform - I don't really give a sh-t who you blame it on. You are not relevant to this calculus, effectively as you present no threat.

I care about people who are now that much more likely to hate us & sympathize with the enemy who wears no uniform now that they or their relative, loved one, friend etc, was picked up at random, falsely imprisoned & tortured by the US of A or at its behest, and then dumped back at home with a "sorry bout that" and a large chip on their shoulder. I find that to be a threat to national security.

 

Let's say I took a subset of a population to make a point.

 

Doubtle post

 

We have no choice? I can give two choices without even trying. One choice is to designate them as prisoners of war. A second choice would be to move them through the legal system. I agree with getting them before they make their move. We did that with the person who was going to blow up LAX. He was caught in 1999 before he ever had chance. That is one way to safeguard. The other way is to uphold human rights and show your record on human rights and torture to the world, and ask for help in doing something against groups who don't uphold human rights and justice. It is far more likely that you will have willing informants than imprisoning people who aren't threats hundreds of times and claiming there was no choice.

People want to blame the terrorists for their actions, and I think that is fair. I also think it is fair to hold us accountable for ours. You are trying to blame the terrorists for our actions.