Man it kills me to say this but I agree with most of what MacBeth says. I think Eddie Griffin is ready to start and get 30 minutes a game. I think Yao is ready to start and get 30 minutes a game. Boki was drafted to be the starter but who knows if he is ready for that role. As far as I am concerned Francis, Cat, Eddie and Yao should go into training camp as the tentative opening game regular season starters (yes I know Yao will not be here for a few weeks). Eddie and Yao should own the starters minutes unless they prove in camp and the pre-season that they are just not ready to be starters. Damn I get excited thinking about Eddie and Yao roaming the paint. I think Small Forward should be an all out competition. Boki is the guy that is supose to be the future starter there and I give him a chance to compete for the starters job with Rice, TMo and whoever else. I think now is the time to see what Mo and Kenny's place on this team will be. If Eddie shows that he is just not ready then certainly I give one of these guys a chance to start otherwise its time for them to get use to coming off of the bench. What I don't want is for Eddie and Boki to go into camp with the pre decided decision that neither will start.
Hey that is part of the fun of being a fan and posting on a fan board. If you want to see back seat coaching then just wait until the Rockets have their first loosing streak
Man, ain't that the truth! The kids will play, but their not your normal "kids". Yao and Boki have years of "pro" experience already and Griff has a year under his belt (of hell for everyone) and a ****-load of talent. They'll get their minutes depending on what Rudy and company see starting in about a week and into the season. I haven't been as intrigued about the Rocks potential (there's that word again!) in years. How this all plays out is why we're here. It's going to be a hell of a lot of fun.
Surely heyp is right here macbeth! Development has everything to do with the playoffs! I want Francis and Cat to develop to 'next level' players; and they're not going to get that by attending lottery draws. I'm all for Eddie and Yao and all getting plenty of minutes, I want to see them play and do well. But more than that I want to go to the playoffs and see what Cat and Wink will do there, to see how they handle the step-up. If that means the 20 yr old Griffin has to wait another year to start, then I can handle that!
crash5179, Hold on...I'm confused. You guys are reinventing this thread. <b>Is it bringing him along at a 23, 30, 35 pace, or a star-minutes-now pace</b> Forget the history of guards. We are talking about frontline. Show me the 35mpg 20yr PFs in the NBA! Not many. Nowitzki and Garnet played 36 and 38 mpg in their 2nd yr. Are we asking for that (which is what I thought McBeth was saying) or are we talking about a goal of 30mpg, which I believe everyone can agree with. Are we talking about giving Griffin the minutes that Garnett, Webber, Nowitzki, Brand got at 20yrs old (look at their team's records those years), or are we talking about strategic platoon minutes in a team structure like what Shawn Kemp, James Worthy, and Horry got/get. Look at the similar age guys. Very few 19-20yr old PFs get more than 30mpg. At 21yrs old it increases, and then 22yrs old it is much more. What path are we arguing about. McBeth seems to be saying the Garnett, Nowitzki, Webber, Brand path. Notice only Webber and Brand actually played PF in those first years out of that bunch. So, if Griffin gets 35mpg playing two positions like Garnett and Nowitski got, how is Boki getting 30mpg, then???
Unless I am wrong this thread was never about star-minutes but it was about starter-minutes. I am not talking about a set number of minutes but I am not in favor of limiting his minutes just because he is only 20. I think he should be able to handle 30 minutes a game give or take a few minutes. If that proves to be too much for him then cut him back to a number of minutes that he can handle. If he is strong for 34, 36 or even 38 minutes a game then I think he should get it. If his performance drops off noticeably after 25 then maybe cut him off there. What I am more interested in then a set number of minutes is seeing Eddie on the floor with Yao, Steve and Cat especially at the beginning and end of games and when the games are on the line. We all agree that Eddie is the future at the 4 spot so if he is ready then let Steve get used to starting and finishing games with him now.
crash5179, You have a take that I can agree on, and I probably actually do. But I don't think you are expressing McBeth's take. You are closer to Sofine, Pat, Crisco, Pimp, DrN, et al imo. To me, this is a classic platoon situation, until Griffin gets stronger. <b>Not even Garnett and Nowitzki were asked at age 20 to play PF against the power players.</b> Unless you want to make him a Garnett/Nowitzki type 20yrs small forward, which takes away from Boki, or makes us discard Rice, then you have to measure him against how he got abused by strong PFs last year. His body wasn't ready. That takes time. Jermaine O'Neil didn't get good just because Indiana gave him minutes; Jermaine got good because he got MUCH stronger, something Jonathan Bender is yet to do. Strength and power is why Kenny played more minutes at PF and Eddie played against the SFs. I think it is a platoon situation until Eddie is a legit Western Conference PF. Until then, I don't mind spot starting him against Glenn Robinson, Horry, Nowitzki, Gasol, and Walker. But against Davis, Mason, Duncan, Webber, Wallace, Garnett, Brand, Martin, Malone .... I don't want him in there in the 1st Q as a PF or in a close game under 4 minutes. He gets abused. We have to play him at SF against the power teams, until he gets stronger.
Not only am I not talking about star-type minutes, I'm not really talking about a set # of minutes at all...What I am talking about is priorities. The kids should be the priorities irrespective of how much other, more immediate goals seem to matter on any given day. So, what I mean is, decide that developing Eddie is your priority at pf, decide what schedule works out best for that goal, and fit in the other pieces to accomadate that end. If he struggles, let him go on and struggle, and learn. Don't pull him and put in Kenny cause Kenny's shooting well, and you'll pull off this win against the Clippers if you do. That's short sighted, and Eddie won't learn to play his way through the rough times until he does just that...let him learn those and other valuable lessons now, before the games it'll cost us take away from legitimate championship aspirations. HeyP...I understand your point about the playoffs, and the benefits of learning therein, but we're going to win or lose championships with Yao, Eddie, and possibly Boki playing significant roles, and if we hamper their learning to speed up another aspect of Steve and Mobley's experience, we will be shooting ourselves in the foot as a group. As a group, we have to learn to walk before we run, and teaching the guards to skip and jump while the kids are learning to crawl doesn't really do us any good. Let's get them all running together. I don't think that sitting and watching while Steve and co., with the intention of learning by soaking it all in will benefit the kids anywhere near as much as sitting behind kenny night after night so we can win 5 or so more games will harm their growth.
You are backpedaling, about minutes. And you don't know what I mean by Playoff experience at all. You really are talking like a Memphis or GS fan. This league is ALL about the playoffs. Right now...we need desparately to get Francis into the playoffs. I mean, how long did Jordan have to wait for a playoff. Francis could freeze up on his learning curve if we don't get him into the playoffs NOW!!! You started this thread about one yr. No one really disagrees with you except about minutes and roles in this year. Don't expand this to a future, because we all want Griffin getting 35 minutes by age 21-22. That is just theory to say focus on Griffin now at the expense of wins makes us better. Francis makes us better. Griffin is a second thought to that...this year sorry, I could not disagree with you more if you think we should pull Kenny or MoT when they are hot, just to get Griffin in there for his set minutes.
1) Uh...no, I'm not. I stated, and re-stated, that my fear was sitting and gnashing my teeth while watching some mediocre vet play ahead of the kids. I haven't altered my stance on that one bit... 2) I did mention Francis and Mobley...I called them the guards...In fact the point I made was ABOUT Francis and Mobley, and having them on the same page as the kids. 3) I can see that you have edited your post to eliminate some of your original errors in criticism, such as re: Garnett, etc...In the future, please do me the courtesy of actually reading what i say, and thinking about what you say, before you accuse me of backpeddaling. 4) Your point is now that this is all about the playoffs, and that we should only be looking at this year...Even if you accept that as valid, which I don't, what gives you the right to apply your criteria to an argument I started, after I started it, and accuse me of backpeddling for not meeting your post-applied standard!?!?!
MacBeth, I edited my comments after seeing your last mention of Francis. So you aren't backpedaling...you are just against playoff experience for Francis then, which is worse than backpedaling. It just goes against everything I believe in about playoff experience for you to say that you'd give up 5 games to develop Griffin. That is just a theory to say that 5 games lost to letting Rice, KT and MoT to win games for you will make Griffin better more than playoff experience for Francis will. I just totally disagree that you shouldn't try to win every game. Some games you will play Kenny for only 15 minutes and Rice as well, other games Griffin will not be a closer. But how does just losing games despite what Rice, KT and MoT are doing make Francis better in the long run. And you still haven't explained how Griffin playing SF/PF like Garnett and Nowitzki doesn't take away from Boki's minutes.
I am not against Francis getting playoff experience...gheesh. I am against prioritizing winning at all costs now, to get Francis that experience, if one of the costs is r****ding the devlopment of our kids. In terms of the value of playoff experience, I allready said that I see that value, I just think it's secondary to the overall scheme of getting us to win it all. Given the great teams currently playing in the West, just making the playoffs to lose to the Lakers or Kings doesn't seem worth having to prolong the learning curve for our future frontcourt stars. It will help Francis to learn to win or lose with the guys he's going to be doing that with for the next 10 years, rather than the guys who might make the former more likely for the next 10 games. I have no idea what you are asking about Griffin and Boki re: Garnett/Nowitzki...They are each the priority at their respective positions, as far as I'm concerned. Last point...do you SERIOUSLY attribute O'Neal's vast improvement to just getting stronger? You're saying that the fact that it corresponded exactly with his new team's giving him tons of more minutes, (the basis for his asking to be moved in the 1st place) is just a co-incidence?
MacBeth, I totally understand you wanting the rookies/Griff to get major minutes, and I think they should as well... if they earn them. We MUST get into the playoffs this season. Barring another hellish year of injuries, we should. I don't care if it's 3 and out in the first round. (well, of course I care, but... to make a point) The young guys that make up 90 odd % of the team, except for Mobes, haven't had a taste of the post-season and it's as important to their development as anything I can think of. They NEED it. To them the season is a failure if we don't get to the dance. Thank god they care. It's how they measure their success for themselves and against their peers. They don't want another off-season of frustration. And they need the growth it will give them. It will be a benefit for the players your worried about. And it will HELP US!!! (from going nuts)
I think Griffin will get more minutes this year but KT and Taylor will probably get more time.Will this set back Griffin's growth? Possibly.But the important thing to note is Griffin's skill level at the present time and is he strong enough to get consistant minutes in the paint. Rudy should utilize his all his strengths. If he is as good as KT or Mo-T than he should get more minutes than them because of his greater upside but if they are still better than him,he should have his minutes increased gradually this year.
You need to go and check your stats because Garnett started the last 30 games of his rookie yr. I'm most sure the coach and management could have kept Sam Mitchell in as a starter, but they didn't. The couple of games KT or Taylor might help us win will only restrict the developement of Griffin and Nachbar.
We could give Francis all the playoff experience in the world. But giving him that experience wont bring a championship. The fact of the matter is that Francis can't win us a championship alone, right? He needs his team mates. So, who's going to help him out? MoT? KT? Uh, he's going to need more help than that (Defense is something that we're missing). Francis could spend the rest of his career with MoT and KT and all they would get would be 2nd round playoff exits. All in the name of "playoff experience?" I think there is a conflict in this discussion regarding "development" and "playoff experience." They are NOT the same. Similar, but not the same. Development is done over time (like an 82-game season). Playoff experience is SHOCK TRAUMA!
