I agree. He totally screwed the Griz. I was refering to the current situation. It could be a mistake on my part to seperate them. Maybe he'll react exactly the same way. His comment, according to another thread, was "I've never been able to play with a guy like that so it remains to be seen how it will help my game." If that comment means he's played with guys like that and it didn't work, then his comment doesn't make sense. Why would it remain to be seen? He should have left it at "I've never been able to play with a guy like that". Maybe some context would help, but I'm a little uncertain exactly what that means. You assume his comment refers to a "Center who demands the ball" ala Hakeem, but you have said previously Ming is a high post center, as opposed to Hakeem, who is a low post player. Doesn't that mean they are not the same type of player?? I agree about the extension. That is why I refer to not signing it as doing something. However, if we shop Steve now, won't every team say to themselves "They can't resign him", or even worse "How bad ARE his migraines and/or shoulder problems". I wonder exactly what his trade value is right now. His shoulder needs 4 months of rehab. That's a long time. If we try to trade him because of his b****ing, that's two times in three years, three if he was involved in running out Hakeem. Teams may be a little leery of him. We may already be in "Marbury for Brandon" territory. Or worse. You said if he won't sign an extension, we waited too long to trade him. Then you said demand he signs an extension by a certain date, and if he won't, trade him. How are those two senarios different? I don't like what I hear about his attitude, either. I just don't think he should be ripped this bad without something more concrete. I also think he should be given a little credit for playing through injuries and wanting to win. I don't believe that a guy who was just about numbers would fight through all his injury problems. I guess in the final analysis I have to agree with your statement "Do not go into the season with an unsigned Steve Francis who is copping an attitude". I just think the criticism is excessive at this point.
nm, Finn got it. people are going to have to retire before he becomes anything close to 2nd best center in the west, let alone in the league. By then he'll probly already be eclipsed by younger players coming the league or current centers improving their game. Kandi sucks and is not worth spending big money on.
and I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents as well. I'd prefer not to trade Francis, but if he wont/can't adjust his game I would have no problem trading him for a Miller type pg(not that I think we'd necessarily be able to get him). With the amount of talent on this squad we need a distributing pg who pushes the ball. D wouldn't hurt either. If it's true that he is being a baby about this and might cause problems(i.e. freeze out Ming, not sign extension, **** up chemistry, blah blah blah), I wouldnt' be too opposed to trading for a stud sf(in draft or est. player) and drafting Welsh at #15, or trading for a pg of comparable talent to Stevie: Davis, Miller, JWill. Hopefully this will all blow over though.
I am assuming, but what I'm assuming is that Francis considers them the same, that is, a center who commands the offense being run through him. Remember, Steve is on record saying he wants to be "the quarterback." I'm suggesting a behind the scense, not made public, "drop dead date" before the league's imposed deadline. According to league rules, an extension must be signed before the start of the season. I'm suggesting imposing one on July 15th or so, in order to trade Francis during this Summer trading period, and before Jay Williams signs with Chicago. I'm suggesting working out a trade ahead of time, if Francis truly is suggesting that he will bolt ... I don't even care what the reason is for that threat. I don't care whether it would mean that Ming needs more time to develop like Rik Smits or anything. If francis is making such a threat, he is threatening the career of all the players on the team, besides the fans. By league rules, if Francis is not signed, Francis *must* become an restricted free agent next summer. And you know what ... there is only one franchise player since the new Collecting Bargaining Agreement who has not signed an extension, and that is Tracy McGrady, and ironically, it was because of another star not helping his game (ie, to be THE man)...and look what Toronto got for him. I think we are in agreement that we can't underestimate how damaging it could be for Steve refusing to sign an extension. If he signs one, I have full confidence that Rudy can get any player in line with a nothing-matters-but-winning attitude. TroyBaros, You are lacing "insider info" with your personal opinion, distrust of Rockets mgmt, and personal judgement that Francis is good enough to drop everyone to keep him happy (like Bird, Magic, Jordan, and Dream). He isn't. Back-up and think about how such a controversary will seriously hurt this organization, and please reconsider speaking for these players by helping stir a controversy. Few of us are fans of players over Rockets Mgmt, unless that player is Dream. Francis is not in Dream's class and never will be. But more importantly, know that you basketball opinion when separated from your "insider info" is just plain poor, right there will Steve Francis's knowledge of the game. You two need to study the game. You prediction that we will take Mike Duneavey as the #1 pick (starting a huge thread to say that) proves to me that you know little about basketball and are way overly exciteable about your connections to insider info. You are a controversy maven, and I have proof of that by your statements regarding how "what makes me think we will soon be discussing steriods" as a cause of Darryl Kyle's death. Troy, you are overly exciteable, and we aren't using a #1 on Dunleavy...don't be such a basketball idiot like Steve Francis. good grief.
Dike Haywood Zo Camby Wallace Rebraca Campbell Magloire Antonio Davis(or Keon, whichever) Brad Miller Theo Ratliff Zydrunas Nazr Chandler or Curry(whichever ends up playing there) also, Tsakalidis may end up being better than Kandi before it's all said and done.
heypartner-We're in agreement here. I don't think we can afford to wait. Though, I don't think we'd trade him to Chicago because Jay Williams kind of turned us down. Another hypothetical would be to trade him to Sacramento for a resigned Bibby, and Turkeyglue (or if you're extra lucky, Peja), along with of course Dre Miller and Baron. But, Francis becomes a restricted free agent next summer, no? Also, wasn't T-Mac's rookie contract signed under the old CBA?-he spent only 3 years in Toronto. This is the first year we have the crop of restricted free agents, and the only 2 worth mentioning are basically Bibby and Kandi. The franchise players all signed extensions last summer (Dirk, Pierce, Carter, and I guess Jamison). To quote Mobley, if Francis is saying this because he doesn't think Ming can contribute "that's a lack of respect" for the Rockets organization. What the Rockets shouldn't do is trade the #1 (Ming), just to appease Francis. We have a big enough clique as it is. If you're trading the #1, it's because you got a great offer, just because your PG of a team that didn't win 30 games doesn't think the #1 will "help his game". Shouldn't the PG be most worried about helping others' games? Imagine- what would've happened if Rice had said that about Francis: "I've never been able to play with guys like that. Playing with scoring point guards have never helped my game".
Some of you guys are walking a fine line if you think Francis is racist. Considering Rudy T is white I doubt that Francis is racist.
Criticizing Francis I understand, because he's being selfish. But for you guys crossing over and ripping and bashing and just trashing the guy, come on. I mean people are trashing the guy like you did to Scottie Pippen. The guy hasn't did anything to the Rockets near as close to what Pippen did. I mean at least wait until after the draft and see how he reacts. I haven't seen the Utah Jazz get trashed the way Francis is getting trashed.
I completely disagree with you on this point. That could easily be a grammatical error on his part. I made the same sort of errors in grade school, before I started paying closer attention to my speech. Now, I am no idiot, and I'm certainly not saying Francis is, but the NBA isn't exactly known for it's stellar use of grammar. I would very much like to hear the context of the situation before we all pass judgement.
What if the godsend occurs Wednesday? If Wagner slips all the way to #15 draft night, then we can keep the selfish godly athletic pg quota filled, take Wagner and jingle jangle Francis back east for young talent, SF types. Hell, Wagner has a 6'8" reach and can play ping pong 2" off of the floor far better than can Francis. And, I'm sure he could improve upon the crappy asst/to ratio. People act like the only reason that Francis is better than all of these college talents is because he's a) in the NBA today and b) because he can jump 42". Because of the bullpooey post modern condition I'll act like my opinion is valid on the matter (which is totally annoying I'm learning when people with no ****ing clue act as if they have an opinion on science 'well we don't know about blah blah blah'; nooo.... YOU don't know, we know quite a bit') and say a body for a body. A superstud hard to guard shooting point guard for a superstud hard to guard shooting point guard. Git riddy of francis.
I think people are claiming Francis maybe stereotyping players by their ethnicity. I see it all the time at the gym. The black guys usually get picked up first over any other ethnicity regardless of size or skills.
It's not really that difficult if people would quit going ape over a freakin' sound byte. "NEVER BEEN ABLE" can easily mean "NEVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY" as in "I've always wanted to watch that play but never been able to". Is this really that difficult? lol.
lmao. Not at you gascon, but that you would expect so little from Francis. Also, from what Clutch and TB are telling us, we should expect this selfishness from Francis. Read it like it reads.
NIKE, A 3-way trade with Williams ending in Cleveland and Andre Miller coming here would suit all 3 teams; maybe something along those lines? And all this, of course, only if Steve insists on being a problem. If he signs his extension, doesn't make a fuss, etc etc, we'll know. If not, I hope calls have already been made. Come on, Steve, we don't want you to go, I mean come on, Ming's a high-post center! No problem. None! We can have more than one superstar on the team!
Yeah, I was afraid that was going to be taken as a slight to Francis...but the overall use of grammar really is very poor in the NBA....you gotta admit.
Not to pick on you Achebe but this is the type of thing I hate. People disagree with Francis and the first thing they do is take his negatives and balloon it as if he's a crappy player. The guy is an All-Star, that wasn't a fluke. And he's still a good PG, he did everything he could to help a team destroyed by injuries win. And ripping the guy for playing with a migraine? At least he played through the migraines, how many other players would have used that as an excuse to ride the pine and collect a check? And Dream ran HIMSELF out, not Francis. Pinning Dream leaving on Francis is just an excuse to rip the guy. Last I checked Francis didn't tell the Rockets "look, don't give Dream the money he wants, I don't want him here"! Of course the same people crossing the line into personally ripping the guy like this will jump on the bandwagon if this is blown out of proportion. Even if Francis shapes up (assuming this is his true feelings), a lot of the Rockets fans have already shown their true feelings of the guy, calling him a crappy PG, with a bad attitude, injury and turnover prone that ran Dream out of town. How are you going to be able to take that back?
The All-Star stuff is meaningless. It's a fanclub. Can you honestly tell me that Francis deserved that spot over Gary Payton? John Stockton? Mike Bibby? Cha. As if. I don't fault the guy for being injured. But he is injured. He's as injured as Dream is old. I'm assuming Francis waving Dream out of the low post had a ton to do with Dream's frustration. But, I'm not going to exonerate Dream... Dream acted pretty selfish. But what I'm seeing of Francis is pretty scary... and pretty stupid too. "I can't work w/ a player like that". What does that mean? A decent Center? A strong low post presence, ala Dream? That stuff is scary. Why do you think I'd want to take any of this back? Francis is the same selfish player he was 3-4 years ago as heyp and others have pointed out. The only thing I'm open and curious about is if Francis loses the turnovers when he gets a salient frontcourt. Since the guy wants to run the wing on the fastbreak, I'm pretty damn dubious about him ever being an effective point guard, but that's a topic for another day.
RocketsMillenium achebe said "A superstud hard to guard shooting point guard for a superstud hard to guard shooting point guard." He called him a superstud. No one said he was a crappy player. We just don't think he's any better than Marbury. And I could say that people have their heads in the sand to think Steve doesn't have a Stephon Marbury flakey personality that has the potential to bolt. These players are way too risky, and we have too much confirmation and history to keep letting this build... <ul> <li>He Screwed Vancouver <li>Barkley didn't like Francis and said so several times <li>Dream didn't like the Francis-style Offense and bolted <li>Shandon has an on court argument about being iced-out and publicly said Francis has to mature <li>Francis said last year "that he has to wait to see if we will win to discuss an extension" a clear statement that he doesn't think he can will his team to a playoff like the true legends can <li>And now he's saying he'll have to wait to see if a center will improve his game...or the teams...whatever <li>Doc and Clutch have confirmed he's pissed</ul>His history of demanding things or not feeding or listening to the needs of his teammates is making me nervous. At some point, the comfort of maintaining power via trade surpasses the risk of waiting on Steve to sign an extension. We cannot go into the season with an unsigned Steve Francis. He has too much baggage if he forces a trade for us to get equal value. <b>NIKEstrand</b> You can add Vince Carter to your list of franchise players who stayed put. With McGrady, I guess I meant the last franchise player who bolted on the team who drafted him. Did Shareef go public with a "trade me" request, or was that as much mgmt shopping him? When is the last time that 2 teams traded fairly when involving a young franchise player that wanted out.
