Experts say that the "War on Drugs" increases crime

Not trying to argue, but why would the improvements in forensic technology lead to a big drop in crime? I can see that it would increase the number of solved cases, but these are fairly big drops since 1984.

This is the only way I can see that the "war on drugs" could increase crime:

Assume that on a scale of 1-100 crime was at 100 in 1984, with drug crime being 10 of that 100. Now assume that overall crime is down to 70, but that drug related crime is now 35. I would then think that these experts would argue that if it wasn't for the "war on drugs" that overall crime may now be 40 with drug related crime at 5. (I'm just pulling numbers out of the air for example purposes).

I don't think other evidence is necessary other than the one I keep trotting out. Those statistics show that crime has decreased in the past 20 years. I have yet to see those stats refuted. Where are the stats that show specifically how drug related crime has increased since the "war on drugs" was instituted (I think you indicated in another thread it was really kicked into high care during Reagan's first term - early 80s).

I keep reading the articles you post saying this is true, but they never refute or explain the factual data that I include in your threads. I'll quit trotting out these stats (or at least qualify them), when I see something that explains or refutes them. Until then, I'll try to continue to show that crime has decreased over the past 20 years.

Bear in mind that I don't know, nor do I profess to know, if any one thing is directly attributable to this decrease, and as I wrote, perhaps if it wasn't for the "war on drugs" crime may have decreased EVEN MORE, but the articles always seem to imply that crime has increased. I would love to see an article which explains the drop in crime as evidenced by the FBI stats and that it could decrease any more if the "war on drugs" effort was changed rather than saying that crime has increased due to the "war on drugs".

 

give em' hell andy!





I can't believe I wandered in here.

 

Yes, Cops is the reason why Ive stopped commiting all my crimes. I hardly think TV shows is the reason why crime has decreased....other than to lock their lazy asses in front of the TV. (I think I stumpled onto something here ... crime has decreased because we are just to damn lazy to commit them these days)

You're losing your credibity here stating War on Drugs is not working. When BoBrek offers hardcore states that crime has decreased after the 80's, you come back with a exaturating comment of "skyrocket". I do agree that the War on Drugs is not working effectively.

Andy, I don't know which is your hardon, crimes (in general) or drugs being illegal. If its crimes, then BoBrek has proven to you that society is getting better with the reduction of crimes, regardless. If its about your personal agenda to have access to drugs w/out having the law on you, then you're arguement is still offbased.

Drugs and crime, hand in hand, is not the problem. Its crime and money that is the problem. So what do we do when we declare all drugs legal (regulated of course), do you really believe crime will drop? Drug lords do not have a hardon about mar1juana or cocain, its about money. Add the supply, drop the demand, basic principals of economy set forth, thus causing dramatic drop in the price of drugs. Great! Im happy no more crime, you're happy you can smoke what you want, poor people can now have their addiction at a reasonable cost, thus saving them money to take care of their family life. (Rock) stars no longer find its cool to smoke up weed as its no longer illegall, which passes on to the kids, who will also no longer find its cool to smoke weed, do dope, or whatever they do.

Everyones happy! Right? Even the drugs lords (and those who profit from drug dealing) are happy. They take their millions and billions, retire and live happily ever after. So basicially we put them out of business. Right? Or will they do what every smart businessmen would do (and yes, they are smart business men), find a new business to startup, whether is pirating software or something we take for granite everyday, thus creating the vicious cycle again.

Andy, we all agree that the war on drugs is putting the wrong people in prision. The real criminals will walk either way (at least the way were going about it. I vote carpet bomb the fields and assasinate the kingpins) If its about crime, then you do not give up. Contain it here.

 

On a related note...

Adult Corrections Population Hits Record

By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - A record 6.9 million adults were incarcerated or on probation or parole last year, nearly 131,000 more than in 2002, according to a Justice Department study.

Put another way, about 3.2 percent of the adult U.S. population, or 1 in 32 adults, were incarcerated or on probation or parole at the end of last year.

A record 4.8 million adults were on probation or parole in 2003, about 73,000 more than the year before. About 70 percent of adults involved in federal, state or local corrections systems fall into this category. The states of California and Texas together accounted for about 1 million.

The number of adults on parole after serving a prison sentence rose by 3.1 percent from 2002 to 2003, to more than 774,500 people. That compares with an average annual rise of about 1.7 percent since 1995 for those on parole, a figure that has been increasing at a much slower rate than those in jails (4 percent a year), in prison (3.4 percent) and on probation (2.9 percent).

Since 1995, states around the country have increased the use of mandatory parole after prison release and cut down on use of discretionary releases overseen by parole boards, the report says.

The report, released Sunday, focused most on the characteristics of those on probation or parole. Its findings include:

_Almost half of all probationers were convicted of a felony, with 25 percent convicted of a drug violation.

_Washington state had the highest number of people on probation per 100,000 population, at 3,767. New Hampshire had the lowest rate at 426.

_Of the 2.2 million people discharged from probation in 2003, three out of five met the conditions of their supervision. Another 16 percent were jailed because of a rule violation or a new crime, with 4 percent becoming fugitives.

_About 95 percent of those on parole had been convicted of a felony.

_Of the 470,500 parolees discharged from supervision last year, 38 percent went back to jail for a new crime or a rule violation, with 9 percent becoming fugitives.

 

Take the 2000 census figures for population for the following cities:

Los Angeles
Chicago
Atlanta

You have roughly the same number of people incarcerated or on probation or parole last year in America.



25 percent of those were convicted of a felony drug violation.

Ya I'd say we have a problem.

 

Looks like these folks are taking some action.

http://www.changetheclimate.org/campaigns/boston04/

Change the Climate Places mar1juana Reform Ads in Boston for Democratic Convention

From July 26 to the 29th, the Democratic Party will be holding their convention in Boston. We’ve taken this opportunity to raise mar1juana law reform with a unique advertising campaign – which you can see as you exit Logan Airport and on other billboards in the Boston area.
Like in any election season it is important for citizens to know where their elected officials stand on issues important to them. Here is a listing of the congressional voting record on important mar1juana policy reforms.
While Change the Climate does not advocate for specific legislation, we encourage citizens to raise mar1juana reform issues with their elected officials. You can send a variety of letters to your elected officials online using an interactive web page sponsored by NORML.
Talk to them about any of the following issues:

Kids who get convicted of minor mar1juana violations can lose their federal student loans. Low income students are hurt by this misguided law. You can learn more about this issue by visiting www.ssdp.org.
Parents can lose custody of their children for minor mar1juana possession.
Federal agents continue their assault on medical mar1juana patients and caregivers in California and other states that have passed medical mar1juana legislation, denying the wishes of millions of voters and citizens. You can learn more about medical mar1juana issues at www.mpp.org.
The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) has tried to prevent the growth of the industrial hemp industry by seeking to block hemp products from being sold in the U.S.
Over 700,000 people continue to be arrested every year, costing taxpayers billions of dollars. Let your elected officials know that there are better ways to spend your tax dollars. Let them know that the criminal justice system and valuable police resources should be used for violent criminals.

You can also help spread the word by supporting Change the Climate's ad campaigns by making a contribution on our secure web site or by purchasing a t-shirt, bumper sticker or poster in our online shop. You can spread the word yourself by emailing your friends and family about Change the Climate.

Thanks for your interest and support.

 

andymoon -- question for you:

Should I call HPD and turn in my neighbor who smokes the hippie lettuce every single day at 6:00pm? He is clearly breaking the law. He is making the area in which I live smell bad. Heck, his friggin wardrobe is devaluing my property all by itself. It's just bad advertising for a very nice area.

I'm frankly sick of his inconsiderate behavior. He is imposing negative externalities on his neighbors and I will no longer stand for it. Perhaps I'll frame him! I'll ask him if he can 'hook me up' and when he does, I'll have a police officer in plain clothes there waiting to bust him for distribution. What is the sentence for that? Can I make him serve some time? Let's hope so. It's payback time, neighbor.

 

you are one sick puppy

 

Reading is good.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80756

 

TROLL An outrageous message posted to a newsgroup or mailing list or message board to bait people to answer. A post that is intentionally inflammatory and which is typically an attempt to start a flamewar. Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it. Also, the person who posts such messages.

 

Just legalize the stuff already…

One Smokin’ Team

By DJ Gallo
Special to Page 2

What if testing positive for mar1juana wasn't a violation of the NFL's substance abuse policy? In fact, what if possessing mar1juana wasn't even against the law in the United States? I found myself pondering these issues last week, after both Ricky Williams and Bam Morris made cannabis-related news.
Would Williams have retired if he could keep smoking mar1juana? Would Morris, who just completed a five-year prison sentence, have played on if six pounds of mar1juana hadn't been found in his trunk back in 1996?
And would a team of potheads -- led by the backfield of Williams and Morris -- be able to beat any team in football?
I found myself asking all of these questions.
And, no, I wasn't high at the time.
I see this All-Weed Team defeating all comers. Instead of boring old plays like the "Pro 34 Dive" or the "24 Slant Tight Left," they'd run things called the "Smoked Screen," the "Hail Mary-Jane," or maybe the "Bong Pass." They'd wear uniforms made from hemp and refuse to work out or watch film. They'd get endorsement contracts not with Nike and Gatorade, but with companies that produce liquid masking agents. The locker room would be filled with homemade arts and crafts like water-bottle bongs. And the trainer's room would be stocked with medical mar1juana to be used for the treatment of all injuries.
With a little research, I put together a fantasy team so . . . umm, loaded -- 11 current or former All-Pros and Pro Bowl players -- that Bam Morris didn't even make the final cut. So without further ado, let's take a look -- even if it is with bloodshot eyes -- at the All-Weed Team. (No sense stalling any further; some pot smokers might be reading this, and their concentration can go pretty quickly.)

OFFENSE
Running back: Ricky Williams, formerly of the Miami Dolphins. Led NFL in rushing in 2002 with 1,853 yards.
The All-Weed Team starts with Williams. With three failures of league drug tests on his record, the former All-Pro even admitted to the Miami Herald last week that his desire to continue smoking pot contributed to his decision to retire. That's some serious dedication to weed. And considering that long-term mar1juana might lead to motivational problems, impaired judgment and loss of ambition, it's no wonder Williams thought it wise to give up the millions of dollars remaining on his contract for a life of joblessness and bong hits. He'll get the bulk of the carries on the All-Weed Team.

Running back: Jamal Lewis, Baltimore Ravens. Led NFL in rushing in 2003 with 2,066 yards.
Lewis was suspended in 2001 for violation of the league's substance abuse policy. (The details of Lewis's two positive tests weren't released by the league, so we can't be absolutely certain about his substance of choice.) But that -- and his current federal indictment in relation to a drug ring -- are enough to put Lewis in our backfield with Williams. It's a backfield that any coach would want to have between the hashish ... er, hashes.

Wide receiver: Randy Moss, Minnesota Vikings. All-Pro with 8,375 receiving yards in just six seasons.
Moss tested positive for mar1juana at Florida State and was kicked off the team before he enrolled at Marshall. He was also charged with possessing a small amount of mar1juana in 2002 in relation to a traffic accident, but the charge was dropped after he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of careless driving and a petty misdemeanor charge of obstructing justice. Like the old saying goes: "A rolling Moss always gets stoned." Or something like that.

Wide receiver: Muhsin Muhammad, Carolina Panthers. Former Pro Bowler and eight-year veteran went for 140 yards and a touchdown in last year's Super Bowl.
Muhammad pleaded guilty in 2002 to misdemeanor charges of possession of mar1juana and carrying a concealed weapon. He also served jail time in 1993 while at Michigan State for violating a probation he was given for possession of mar1juana. Muhammad gets the starting nod over other candidates because of his multiple transgressions -- a dedication to ganja that is not taken lightly on this team.

Quarterback: Todd Marinovich, formerly of the Raiders. Played two seasons in the NFL after being a first round pick of the Raiders in 1991.
Marinovich, now 35, has a long track record with mar1juana, including a conviction for cultivation of the plant in 1998. That history earned him a well-deserved nickname: Todd Marijuanavich. The All-Weed Team provides him with his last, best chance to achieve the football stardom he was seemingly destined for since early childhood. Even the world's biggest pothead wouldn't blow an opportunity like this. Probably. His backup? Virginia Tech sophomore Marcus Vick, who threw for 475 yards and two touchdowns as a freshman last season but is currently suspended indefinitely in the wake of charges of mar1juana possession and reckless driving.

Tight end: O.J. Santiago, Denver Broncos.. Has started 60 games in his seven-year career with four separate organizations.
Santiago was charged with misdemeanor mar1juana possession in 2001 as a member of the Cleveland Browns. His hold on the All-Weed Team's starting tight end spot will be tightened if he agrees to change his initials to M.J.

Center: Mark Stepnoski, formerly of the Dallas Cowboys and Oilers organizations. Five-time Pro Bowl center retired after the 2001 season.
Stepnoski has served as president of the Texas chapter of the National Organization for the Reform of mar1juana Laws since his retirement from the game. His presence is needed both on the field and in the locker room so All-Weed Team members can learn how he managed to avoid a single positive drug test during his 13-year career.

Offensive line: Nate Newton, formerly of the Dallas Cowboys and Carolina Panthers. Six-time Pro Bowl guard retired after the 1999 season.
Despite being 42-years old and out of the game for four years, Newton receives an All-Weed Team spot. In fact, we'll name him a co-captain, along with Ricky Williams, since he was once busted driving around with 213 pounds of mar1juana in his van. That's right -- pounds, not ounces. While his No. 1 job on the All-Weed Team will be clearing holes for Williams and Lewis, a close second will be supplying his teammates with some of his primo product.

Offensive line: Khiawatha Downey, San Francisco 49ers. Rookie tackle earned Division II All-American honors at Indiana University of PA after 2003 season.
Downey twice tested positive for mar1juana while in college.

Offensive line: Marvel Smith, Pittsburgh Steelers. Fifth-year pro was a second-round draft pick in 2000.
Smith was arrested and charged with mar1juana possession in 2002. He also tested positive for mar1juana while at Arizona State. And you thought the Pittsburgh drug culture died with the Pirates of the late '70s and early '80s.

Offensive line: Tra Thomas, Philadelphia Eagles. Two-time Pro Bowler has started every game he has played since joining the Eagles in 1998.
Thomas tested positive for mar1juana before the 1998 NFL Draft. He claimed it was from second-hand smoke, something he should be breathing a lot of in the All-Weed Team's locker room.


DEFENSE
Defensive line: Warren Sapp, Oakland Raiders. Perennial Pro Bowler has 77 sacks in his nine-year career.
Sapp admitted to a positive test for mar1juana while at the University of Miami. He provides the All-Weed Team with bulk in the middle of the defensive line.

Defensive line: Keith Hamilton, formerly of the New York Giants. Former All-Pro had 63 sacks over 12-year career that ended after the 2003 season.
Hamilton was charged with possession of less than 50 grams of mar1juana -- among other drug-related charges -- during a 2003 traffic stop. He'll easily be lured out of his short retirement once he is made aware that there plenty of food available at our postgame spread.

Defensive line: Anthony Maddox, Jacksonville Jaguars Rookie from Delta State was the Gulf South Conference's defensive player of the year in 2003, and a fourth-round pick.
Originally a Florida State recruit, Maddox was arrested in 1999 for possession of mar1juana. He gets named to the All-Weed Team not only for his potential on the defensive line, but also for the valuable connections he has to Florida's fertile, hash-friendly college programs.

Defensive line: Cletidus Hunt, Green Bay Packers Has 15 sacks over his five-year career.
Hunt tested positive for mar1juana at the 1999 NFL scouting combine and twice more after joining the Packers, resulting in a four-game suspension without pay in 2001. His current contract mandates that he must return a portion of his signing bonus if he is suspended again. His All-Weed Team contract mandates no such thing.

Linebacker: Ahmad Brooks, University of Virginia. Sophomore is expected to be a top-10 pick if he comes out of school early in 2005.
The selection of Brooks is based solely on potential -- both on the field and on the pipe. He pled no contest to mar1juana possession in the summer of 2003.


Linebacker: Darren Hambrick, free agent. Has been out of the game since 2002 after playing with the Cowboys, Panthers and Browns.
Hambrick was charged with fleeing a law enforcement officer and resisting an officer in 2001, after the arresting deputy smelled mar1juana wafting from his vehicle during a traffic stop. Hambrick is reunited on the All-Weed Team with former Dallas teammates Stepnoski and Newton, a different kind of "Big Three" to go with the Cowboys' Aikman-Emmitt-Irvin troika in the 1990s.

Linebacker: Cornell Brown, Baltimore Ravens. Originally a sixth-round pick, Brown has played in 96 games during his six-year career, recording seven sacks.
Brown was arrested for mar1juana possession in 2001, but the charge was dropped before trial. Despite the dismissal, no crime-related squad such as the All-Weed Team can go wrong by adding an extra Baltimore Ravens player or two.

Defensive back: Chris McAlister, Baltimore Ravens. Pro Bowl cornerback has 14 interceptions and 224 tackles in five-year career.
McAlister was charged with possession of mar1juana after police found the drug while investigating a burglary at his house. McAlister is currently a holdout with the Ravens, meaning he and Brown will have to smoke apart until an agreement is reached.

Defensive back: Rashard Anderson, Carolina Panthers. A first-round selection in the 2000 draft.
Anderson has been suspended the last two seasons for violating the league's substance abuse policy. He could be reinstated before the start of the season, but he'll always have an active roster spot on the All-Weed Team.

Defensive back: Rodney Artmore, formerly of the Packers. Made Green Bay's team as a rookie free agent in 1999.
Artmore was charged with possession of mar1juana in 2000 and hasn't played in the NFL since. He makes a triumphant return to football now, though, on the All-Weed Team.

Defensive back: Juran Bolden, Jacksonville Jaguars. Recorded seven interceptions over the last two years as a member of the Atlanta Falcons.
Bolden was charged in 2003 with mar1juana possession and driving a stolen car, which Jacksonville apparently thought was worth a five-year, $13.4 million contract this offseason. The All-Weed Team would definitely match or exceed that offer for his services. Plus, we'd throw in some rolling papers.
So there you have it: a team of cannabis aficionados that can hang with anybody in the NFL.
And just wait 'til we put together our All-Weed NBA Team.
Now pass the pretzels. I've got the munchies.
D.J. Gallo is a regular contributor to ESPN The Magazine, as well as the founder and sole writer of the award-winning sports satire site SportsPickle.com.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/040802