Exercise -- List 5 good things about the other candidate

McCain doesn't wear diapers for a man his age.

 

McCain:

Has a decent looking daughter.

 

Thanks for the reminder, Mr. Clutch.

6. Meghan McCain. As I've posted here before, I chatted with her for about 15 minutes in 2004 and she was very charming. Of course, since she talked about how much she hated Bush and what a drag it was to hang out with his daughters so we got along very well. She also mentioned that McCain would be voting for Kerry.

 

1. Obama has done a fantastic job of keeping highly damaging information on him from becoming public so far this election season.

2. Obama no longer regularly attends a black separatist theology church

3. Obama no longer interacts regularly with felon and mentor Tony Rezko (it's tough when Rezko is in the pokey)

4. Obama has done a good job of not letting Michelle Obama 'slip' and reveal her true America-hating and racially devisive character during the campaign.

5. Obama is a master of luring the politically and socially naive into his group of supporters

 

That's why I asked him -- but thanks for replying.

 

If you hadn't bolded that part of your sentence, it wouldn't be clear what you meant.

 

McCain:

1) Stood up to the religious right
2) Called out the Republican congress for "spending like drunken sailors"
3) Stood up to the white house on torture
4) Worked for campaign finance reform
5) Wants to reduce/eliminate earmarks
6) Was against the tax cuts for the wealthy
7) A true war hero

 

McCain:

1. He supports nuclear power
2. He's a vetern
3. He's worked across the aisle
4. He once stood up to Bush
5. He dumped his wife after a car accident and married a hot sugga momma

 

Then you have to come up with 2 more.

 

McCain seems to place value on respectful discourse
McCain values a healthy system of government, understands that the means - not just the ends - are important
McCain seems to understand that some complicated issues (imigration, for instance) will require thoughtful, complex solutions
McCain seems to have a good sense of humor, generally and about himself
McCain seems to value the expression a wider portfolio of opinions than many politicians
McCain seems to have a sophisticated understanding of the military
McCain seems to have good first instincts about issues like taxes and negotiating with the so-called 'religious' right
McCain has criticized his own base when it has been inconvenient to do so
McCain, to me, seems to genuinely place the health of this country above his own personal ambition
McCain does show many honorable core principles which impact his behavior as a government official (ex. torture)
McCain seems to have the capacity to learn from his mistakes
-----

 

1. (big one) better then bush or kerry
2. vet/pow
3. even though he has caved in for his own good, once used to openly despise bush
4. very experienced (i think that is a good thing not sure)
5. seems like a honestly good man, and tries to be a good man

((people like trader jorge and batman jones suck at this)) get a life unless this world is twisted and you are both right somehow in your opinions. then its somewhere in the middle. learn how to say something decent it is being asked of you. or just skip over it

 

What exactly is the difference between my favoring his past positions and you favoring his past hatred of Bush? I'll tell you what it is: mine was policy based.

I wasn't purely trying to be snarky. I sincerely did favor his positions on those things. It was natural I would because those are the areas in which he crossed party lines, in which he actually was a maverick and a respectable non-partisan.

Yes, sure, I was shining a light on the ways he's walked those positions back but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the independence and courage he once showed in taking them.

And that's cold lumping me with Troller George. I could have answered the way he did but I didn't. I genuinely listed my favorite McCain qualities.

I could have included sense of humor, that's true. Though it doesn't rank above my other five things.

I would not have listed several of the other things listed here, like intelligence, experience, crosses party lines because....

I don't think he's especially intelligent for a presidential candidate. And he's been very vocal about and proud of finishing virtually last in his class. He was a D student. And he's done little since to build the impression that he's especially smart. He's smart enough to be president, sure. I'm not saying he's dumb. But it's silly to mark it as a special quality.

He has a lot of experience, it's true. But what is that worth ultimately? If it results in certain judgments or wisdom, I disagree with his current positions across the board, so I can't count it as a positive.

And if I mentioned his crossing of party lines or his maverick status or his independence or reputation as a moderate, I would have had to have treated those things exactly as I did my 2-5. He has reneged on every position he ever took that was unpopular with his party. Every single one.

George was trolling here; I wasn't. Those are my honest answers.

 

And, incidentally, my list was almost identical to Nolen's except that he used the words "was" and "did" and I used "previous."

 

The thing is, I will actually allow some wiggle room in terms of Candidate McCain vs. Senator McCain. Not because it is right, or because I will like it, but because most of the government officials I have supported, particularly for president, look different as candidates, and it aggravates me. Obama, Clinton, Kerry, Gore as well as Dole, Reagan, Bush and McCain. It's not right, but I factor it in.

Like on immigration, McCain took a freaking pounding. He's taken a lot of heat over the years. He's kissing AM radio ass now, but i will give him credit in the meta-way for being more principled that the Mitt Romneys of the world in the past. I think he is a disaster on social issues because he does not really give a rats ass, and thats a problem. But as the Republican nominees go, he has the biggest pulse of decency among the big ones in 08. Which is akin to being "the Spice Girl with the best singing voice" - faint praise indeed. But he has more integrity than the garbage the dittoheads have been trotting out since '96. At least i don't throw up when he talks.

Comparing Batman to some of the parrots / trolls on the board from the other side of the political spectrum is insane; he may be merciless, but he doesn't just propagate hackneyed political talking points, that's not a remotely apt comparison ever.

 

Thanks, Fan Club.

I understand giving McCain some wiggle room, but I don't understand giving him so much that we ignore his current position on (for example) immigration.

He took a very principled, very brave stand on immigration (as did Bush, btw) and I admired that a lot. I still admire that he took that position. But he has, for whatever reason, almost completely reversed it. It would be disingenuous of me to characterize his brave position as anything but "previous."

I could have gone on and on with things I liked about McCain. Certainly before this campaign I would have listed him as principled and that would have been #1 on my list. Now I understand that candidates have to do awkward, uncomfortable things when running for office and I appreciate that, but there is no way that I can call him principled when his ads are chock full of lies (not just by my reckoning but by that of every non-partisan fact checking organization) and they all end with him saying, "I'm John McCain and I support this message."

I am not alone in this. Various of his former staffers and advocates are similarly upset about what this campaign has done to his brand, his image and him personally. I know this is supposed to be some kind of feel-good exercise, but ignoring the facts is neither fair nor balanced.

 

The bottom line is all candidates necessarily alter their positions, whether due to a sincere change of heart or due to expedience. I don't fault McCain for the act of changing his positions. I fault him for now taking positions with which I disagree.

When there is a change in a candidate's position on any given thing, there is a cost and there is a reward. Obama has given up some enthusiasm from the left for compromising on FISA, campaign finance, drilling, etc. And that's fair.

What doesn't make any sense to me is to praise a candidate for past positions when he no longer holds them -- especially when, in each and every case here, his position has changed commensurate with what will help him get elected.

I used to have a great deal of respect for Senator McCain. But we're talking about a guy who once referred to the worst of the Republican party, the religious right, as "agents of intolerance" and later took it back and slobbered all over them. Does anyone honestly believe this change in particular was a matter of principle?

 

Voting McCain:

1.) Think its Inspirational that he was able to build such educational and political prominence from obscurity. I don't really like political 'families', and feel that the cream should rise to the top in terms of education and hard work and not family.

2.) He's a very articulate (Mostly teleprompters) but speaks very well in those circumstances that i've seen him.

3.) I appreciate his willingness to talk to varying groups. I don't think complete alienation is the answer

4.) I think his success (HBS law school etc) should be an example of what education can do for african americans. Also a good family man example to follow for all.

5.) I'm not as much a war hawk and would like less involvement militarily overseas. I prefer global capitalism (which I a stance that i'm really against him in is protectionist/union positions)

 

1. McCain can draw upon his vast life experience of living through the Depression.
2. McCain has a unique view on energy because he can remember what it was like before electricity.
3. McCain knows how inefficient cars can be and has seen incredible changes from his first Model-T.
4. McCain has foreign policy experience and has dealt with Russia when it was czarist, communist and whatever they are today.
5. McCain has experience flying airplanes and can fly Air Force One in a pinch.

 

McCain - war hero
McCain - Has experience which may help him know some of how things work in Washington
McCain - Has relationships with many in congress which might help him move an agenda through legislation
McCain - Has a decent sense of humor about himself, but most of his jokes are horrible.
McCain - has paid his dues in many campaigns over the years.

 

Here's why I can cut McCain some slack. When someone like Mitt Romney, for instance, decides that He Is Now Anti-Choice™, and he addresses a group of James Dobson supporters and declares something like "my change of heart is a testament to your good work," I get the feeling that he actually believes it. He's in for the long haul. Romney now Actually In His Heart Thinks Roe V. Wade Should Be Overturned. Like, he'd write it in his diary. He has no 'tell' that I can discern; I think he is a w**** who believes it. He has, actually, traded in his principle.

McCain is more honest in that he is totally lying. He sports that "Sick John McCain Face" - hugging Bush, holding hands with the Dalai Lama, etc. It has got to be the funniest political 'tell' of the last 100 years; he looks like someone has asked him to tongue kiss Antonin Scalia. I LOVE THE SICK JOHN MCCAIN FACE. That thing telegraphs inner feelings like a workhorse. I would not be at-all at-all surprised if he campaigned for Bush but voted for Kerry, and only told his daughter about it, and then that daughter told some randoms on this BBS about it. That's just a hypothetical of course.

I suppose it's the Walrus and the Carpenter - who is worse, the one who knows he is being duplicitous, or the one who genuinely believes his misdeeds are right?

The answer, of course, is - 'take 'em case by case.' In the case of John McCain appearing to choke back his own puke as he auctions away his dignity to people he would not allow to sit next to him on a bus, I offer my most enthusiastic endorsement. Enjoy your base, Senator.