I know this rather lengthy list has been quoted a couple of times, but I was mesmerized by it, so I just had to reply directly to it myself. Let's see... my father was given a Tommy gun (way cool!) the day Pearl Harbor was bombed, because he was working as a guard for an airmail company, the best job he could get after graduating at the top of his class at a Central Houston high school. (There was this thing going on called The Great Depression, and it wasn't because they hadn't invented Prozac.) The people in charge were afraid the Japanese might parachute into what later became Hobby Airport. (seriously!) He served for a time aboard an aircraft carrier, the Saratoga. Dad was shot down in the Pacific, while traveling on a B-25 bomber as a passenger, when a big Japanese sub was spotted, and the pilot decided this was their chance at glory. He had been firing the 50 caliber machine gun in the waist. After one of the two engines was knocked out, and on fire, they had bailed out. Dad and the rest of the survivors (someone, a friend of my father, didn't make it) were picked up just before dark by a PT boat. (not on your list, but Higgins may have produced the hulls. I'll have to check) Oh, and he had a 45 cal. sidearm at different times while in the Navy (not on your list), and rode in Jeeps while in the Phillipines and elsewhere. Thanks, gwayneco. That was really fun, and all true. Almost forgot something. Did you know that the Republican Party, pre-war, was the party of the isolationists, and fought FDR's attempt to ramp up our military industrial complex to manufacture all those weapons, and many others, for the war he saw coming? I think I mentioned it, but there was this Great Depression, manufactoring was in the toilet, and we could have used the arms, and the jobs. I don't think the military industrial complex is inherently evil, I just think Eisenhower was correct... you don't want it "governing" American foreign policy, or pulling money away from other needs by building weapons we have no use for. It's also pretty foolish to sell weapons, on the scale the US is doing, to countries that may decide they no longer like us, or our friends. Don't know if you enjoyed reading this, gwayneco, but I enjoyed typing it. Keep D&D Civil.
Simplistically, it is true that the arms need to be made in industrial factories. Having an arms industry is not the same thing as the MIC as it exists with the revolving door between Congress, the military, industry and lobbyists. It is not true that you need to allow people to make unlimited profits off of war and then use that money to buy politicians and lobby for more war. You can regulate the arms manufacturerers, who after all have one customer, the US tax payer, so as to prevent many of the abuses forseen by Ike.
no american companies provided Iraq weapons or military equipment? howbout rummy, what did he do in Iraq in the 80's?
well that was a different time. iraq was at war with iran and iran was our enemy. the enemy of my enemy is my friend, right? it was reagan after all who took iraq off the list of known terrorist countries (1982), allowing u.s. companies to start selling them weapons and material support. we were even sending the cia over there to help them against iran. i think i have read that the russians and the french were the biggest weapon suppliers to iraq. we just sold them stuff like chemical weapons whose use had been banned by the geneva conventions. chemical weapons they turned around and used on their kurdish populations and also on the iranians, who they were at war with and who we were also covertly selling arms to (iran-contra/ollie north) arming both sides in a war. pretty smooth huh?
Yeah, it worked great for Krupp and Germany. What goes around comes around. The MIC (I love acronyms) has done a lot of good with regard to natioanl stability and military might. But trumpeting it as the savior of the free world is a little daft, and irrelevant to the statement Ike was articulating. It is undeniable that the MIC has an all too powerful hold over the nation, both economically and politically. That is what Ike was afraid of and eerily prohpetic regarding. It's a catch-22 of sorts, IMO. We get into unnecesary wars and conflicts and defecits to support the MIC, arguably well outside of "our nation's interests". However, the MIC is so tied to economic strength that supporting it is, from a certain point of view, within the "nation's interest." It's no longer something you can just turn off.
gwayneco, You seem to believe that American industry is under attack when people, and Ike, warn Americans about the MIP. No one has ever doubted the ability of the American industrial power. But that has nothing to do with the problems that we as Americans face battling the MIP. The MIP refers to the "Iron Triangle" (Defense Contractors, The Pentagon, and Congress). Of course you understand how powerful lobbies influence Congress, Laws, and public opinions, well the MIP is by far stronger than any lobby could every dream of being. The MIP influences foreign policy, strategic needs, defensive planning,....It has no political alliances it's not right or left. Its goal is money and power.
Ok, you got me. Lockheed is the source of all evil on the planet and their minions are our baby-killing soldiers and their maniacal officers.
I'm very impressed by this thread. I never thought that Gwayneco was capable of intelligent discussion.
I dont think he went that far. His argument, and Ike's argument as well, was that the military industrial complex creates a center of power in the hands of military contractors and the pentagon that short circuits much of the democratic process and leads to lobbying for defense policy that is more in the interests of the pocketbooks of lockheed than the national security of the country. Dont get me wrong, the revolution in military affairs and the major advances in communication and intelligence were fundamental to maintaining the US's overwhelming military readiness as well as spurring massive productivity changes in our economy, but it has significant downsides if it is not kept in check. We're finally starting to see how contractors have started to influence US policy, which in this case has led to grossly overpaid jobs for generally worthless military technology because politicians and contractors find it convenient that way. A couple of years ago, a member of the DOD that negotiates contracts admitted that she intentionally inflated multiple boeing contracts in order to get a job at boeing. Also, the massive power of contractors have led to lobbying on an unprecedented scale for contracts all over the place to replace or create new weapons systems that really aren't needed. Our government could do a lot more to slim the defense budget while maintaining effective combat readiness and military technology research but unfortunately cutting defense spending simply is political suicide in the current political climate so it simply will be more of the status quo for the near future.
There's also the guns and butter argument. Spend too much on guns and there's not enough to make the butter. If all the brightest college grads got lifted into military contractors, only the remaining would join the private sector. After Gulf War 1 when Clinton began shrinking defense spending and personel, there was a boom in brain capital, which could very likely have sparked the explosive growth of Silicon Valley and the dot-com boom. Moderation....
Exactly. Of course, it's easier for gwayne to just spout some stupid exaggeration instead of addressing said point. Still think this is intelligent discussion from gwayne, jackfruit? Or more of the status quo...
We should buy more of these link Corps pays $100K for retooled jeep By Steven Komarow, USA TODAY WASHINGTON — The Marine Corps is paying $100,000 apiece for a revamped Vietnam-era jeep as part of its program to outfit the hybrid airplane-helicopter V-22 Osprey, Pentagon records show. The $100,000 U.S. Marine version of the Growler combat vehicle. Marine Corps file photo That's seven times what a deluxe commercial version of the vehicle costs. It's also three times what U.S. Export-Import Bank records show the Dominican Republic paid four years ago for a military version of the vehicle, called the Growler, a recycled version of the M151 jeep. The Marines and the contractor, General Dynamics, say the vehicle has been thoroughly revised with modern automotive parts and adapted to fit on the V-22. "Yes, it did start off with jeep technology, and it does look like a jeep in a lot of ways," says John Garner, the Marines project manager. But he says it's now "state of the art." American Growler Vehicle that American Growler sold to the Dominican Republic's military for $33,000. Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, a non-profit group that monitors Pentagon contracts, says taxpayers are getting a deal that "stinks" on an unarmored vehicle that makes no sense for today's missions, where troops face ambushes and roadside bombs. "In a time of war, we should not be wasting money on a junker which will not protect our troops," Brian says. Under current military safety rules, the Growler would be barred from service in Iraq except as a utility vehicle that doesn't leave the security of a base. The Marines have budgeted to buy more than 400 Growlers, along with a French mortar and ammunition that it would tow, under a contract that could total $296 million. The Growler beat two other vehicles for the contract, Garner says. Built by Ocala, Fla.-based American Growler, the original Growler is made partly from salvaged M151 jeep parts and is available in several versions for as little as $7,500 in kit form. At the high end, there's a $14,500 upgraded "tactical dune buggy" with a "bikini top." American Growler The UV100DB, which is the same vehicle you can buy from American Growler in a kit and put together yourself for about $7,500. The Marines' version has considerable upgrades from the commercial and Dominican Republic models, the Corps and contractor say, including a turbo-diesel engine, disc brakes and other systems adapted from modern vehicles. "It's not your grandfather's jeep," says Kendell Pease, a General Dynamics spokesman. The Osprey is a twin-engine airplane that turns its rotors up for vertical takeoff and landing like a helicopter. Under development since 1986, the V-22 is scheduled to go into service in 2007. It has a history of technical problems and several fatal crashes. The Growler is expected to be deployed with the V-22 in 2007, Pease says.
It's hard to argue with people as clueless as you. If ignorance is bliss, you must be very happy indeed.
Why don't we just put the kits in the Ospreys and let the Marines assemble them under hostile fire. If a few Marines are killed assembling them, so be be it, they're just a bunch of stupid jarheads who aren't nearly as clever as thadeus, rhazmataz, and the rest of y'all haters.
