Its far more than John and Yoko singing "Give Peace a Chance." Think about the events that led up to the fall of the Berlin Wall. What happened in 1989 was that first Hungary opened their borders and word spread throughout the Warsaw Pact and quite suddenly one Soviet dominated government after another fell because there was no way for the Soviets to control the message anymore. In many of the recent revolutions the samething has happened and instant mass protest have been organized by using cell phones and Internet. At the same time its harder for repressive regimes, or even all governments, to hide information from their people. In the old days the Soviet Union could tell their people that everything was fine and they had a higher standard of living than Americans. Once more decentralized means of communication got out that was no longer possible and people realizing the truth rose up to overthrow those regimes.
Assuming, just to avoid an argument that would ultimately prove fruitless, that this is true: If an institution has been beneficial, does that mean it will always be beneficial? That it will never change? That, because it was once beneficial in particular circumstances and at particular times, the MIC is incapable of ever causing problems, of ever becoming anything other than benefical? "Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the moonbat party?"
this is also the same military industrial complex which sells billions and billions of dollars worth of weapons to other countries, many of which are repressive and non-democratic regimes. they do this with the full blessing of our elected officials who are so deep in their pockets that they might as well be lint. and by the way, ike won the presidency based on his strong leadership and success as supreme allied commander in europe. the MIC didnt put him in office. and furthermore, the MIC didnt win WWII. the soldiers did. my grandfather is the one who was shot in the gut crossing the rhine, not the MIC. why do you not give credit where credit is due? do you hate the troops. you must be a "bin ladenist".
the prime goal of the MIC is to make money...lots of it. they make money when we are at war. they make money when they sell weapons to other countries - many of which have horrible human rights abuses. many of which are non-democratic. many of which are repressive towards their own people. but if these countries have the money to buy thats ok and our government gives their full support (hypocrites). ike's concern was the ever-increasing power of the MIC - their political influence over our government and the policy makers. doesnt matter if its republican or democrat - there is no difference. there is something seriously messed up with a country that spends more on its military than the rest of the world combined, yet cant find the resources to take care of its poor, elderly, children living in poverty, ect.
Yeah, as Joe McCarthy and his modern day followers might say, Ike was just a commie dupe to be worried about the MIC. It should be easy to understand, that having a society in which frequent wars make a lot of money for it leaders can lead to unnecessary elective war. Funny many of the same folks who don't see this, claim to be hard headed capitalists who scorn virtually any human motivation other than the profit motive.
To be fair to Gwayneco though the soldiers were armed and transported by the MIC and they coup de grace of the atomic bombs were the ultimate product of the MIC. Without an American MIC there's no way the US could've even gotten to the battlefield.
Before your grandfather went to the Rhine, could you tell me how many of the following he produced: M1 Garand Rifles M1 Garand Cabines Browning Automatic Rifles Tommy Guns 50 caliber machine guns 30 caliber machine guns mortars Howitzers Sherman tanks Jeeps C-47s B-17s B-24s B-25s B-26s A-20s P-51s P-47s P-38s Corsairs Hellcats Bearcats Destroyers Cruisers Aircraft Carriers Battleships Submarines Troop Transport ships Walkie Talkies Higgins boats
Many people do not realize that Ike was one of the most liberal presidents we have ever had. Ended the Korean War by declaring a tie. Huge on social rather than military spending. Gave us the Warren Court, federal highways (by selling them as a defense necessity), and sent federal troops to Little Rock, Arkansas to enforce desegregation. He was a true liberal Democrat in every sense of the word. There was supposedly an offer by Truman that he would serve as Ike's vice president, Ike turned him down, the story goes because he thought it would be better for Democracy to have a new party in charge. He was not a Republican because of ideals, he was a Republican because he felt one party had been in charge too long. Then we had JFK, who gave us the Vietnam War, escalated the cold war and gave us (at that time) the biggest tax cut ever (second only to GWB). One of my pet peeves studying history is that Ike gets too little credit while JFK gets too much.
thanks for that post serious black, interesting. My dad has the same complaint of JFK and the civil rights movements compared to LBJ. JFK gets too much credit and LBJ doesn't get nearly enough.
What does that have to do with it? Nobody including Ike was complaining about making needed military equipment. The complaint was about making stuff that isn't needed that needs to prey on fear etc. in order for people to make money using it. Necessary equipment and being prepared is all well and good.
I wonder if Ike would have made sure his troops had body armor if he were president now and sending them to Iraq.
of course you are right. i was simply using a bit of hyperbole to counter gwayneco's assertion that the MIC won WWII and put ike in office. only a fool would deny the necessity of a strong military industry, just like only a fool would call those who oppose the bush administration "bin ladenists". however, the influence, power and control of the MIC over OUR government is what ike was talking about and he was absolutely right. winning WWII took effort from all sectors of the country. everyone was affected, down to the rationing of foods and clothing that took place. it wasnt just one group (soldiers, factory workers, mcdonnell-douglas executives), although its probably pretty safe to say that the soldier had the least envious job of all.
Don't y'all get it? Gwayneco knows that the "military industrial complex" is more than likely listening and monitoring these communications as you type and he is therefore "buttering them up" with his well placed praise. Good thinking gwayne, nice cover... I think the "military industrial complex" is way cool too. Really...
of course, none. he was kind of busy doing other stuff. hope you didnt spend too much time compiling that list.
The argument over a masive MIC is that its influence would force into wars Americans would normally not enter or nudge the American government into a direction that benefits them, and not the American public. The idea that the MIC stays beneficent even after its rise is an optimistic and hopeful approach. Once you invite the 100-ton gorilla into your home, it's your responsibility to persuade/force him out. If you get that chance, that is.
quoting PGabriel... thanks for that post serious black, interesting. My dad has the same complaint of JFK and the civil rights movements compared to LBJ. JFK gets too much credit and LBJ doesn't get nearly enough.... Yeah, I agree with your dad about LBJ too.
The Sherman tank had very thin armor compared German tanks, but it was reliable and easy to manufacture. At the time the US entered the war, the US tanks, such as the Grant, were obsolete. You go to war with the equipment you have, not the equipment you want to have. The Sherman entered service in 1942, and was at least decent. However it was never a match for German Tigers one on one. The evil MIC did manage to produce 40,000 of them, and they overwhelmed the Germans with numbers.
Totally agree. Ike was one of our best and JFK was perhaps the most overrated. The only thing I would disagree with your post is that I believe Ike said appointing Warren was a mistake.
That is IMO one of the most stupid statements to make particularly for this war. This war is an elective war that was launched and fought on our own timetable. The problem with the body armor isn't that we don't have it or facilities to produce enough of it. It is that due to insufficient planning on the part of the Admin. that's still continuing. Not enough body armor was supplied for a protracted occupation. The MIC can produce enough body armor its just that the Admin's planning is so poor and bungled that they haven't gotten enough to the troops.
