This is already a trade that has no realistic chance of ever happining but at least I can rationalize how the other team might be willing to make the trade. There is no way in hell I could rationalize a trade that would bring us both Josh Howard and Antawn Jamison for Cato and Pike and 1st. Hey if Dallas would send us Howard I would be all for it not doubt. Daniels is not someone that I consider a deal breaker. On top of that I think Daniels is going to turn into a true second round gem.
Sane, Jamison is super athletic and I think JVG could have the same effect on his defense that he has had on the rest of the team. Plus Jamison is not the primary ball handler on the team and does not bring the ball up the court so even I don't see it being the same problem as Steve dominating the ball or making wrong passes or just bad ball handling and bad passes.
Is Welsch a shoot first ball hog? I don't think so. But if you can get Ray Allen for Steve then I'm all for it but I don't think Steve is going to be able to pry Allen from the Sonics. I think the only argument you have to someone being a ball hog might be Jamison but thats it and he is not the primary ball handler or decission maker on the offense.
I would give up Mobley for Brent Barry +, Adam Harrington +, Andrei Kirilenko (I wish), Ron Artest, and Eric Snow + Aaron McKie or Kenny Thomas. And I would give up Cato, Padgett, and Griffin for Shareef Abdur Rahim and crap. I wouldn't do your Steve Francis-Boston trade. Steve Francis for Paul Pierce yes. I would give them Mobley too if they give us Jiri Welsch and Kendrick Perkins or Jumaine Jones. PG - Jeri Welsch G - Cat SF - JJ PF- Antawn Jamison C - Yao Ming Subs G - Marquis Daniels F - MoT C- Chris Mihm This wouldn't be too bad actually. But not gonna happen anyways.
Crash, I like the athleticism the line-up would have with Jamison at the 4, but I think that by having Jamison we would be pretty soft. If you could somehow insert Artest at the 3 in that line-up, and move JJ to the bench, that would be nice. Highly unlikely, but still a nice thought. We would have to get some toughness somewhere.
Mobley and that 1st round pick could possibly be parlayed into Artest. But that depends on where the Pacers would stand at seasons end. If Indiana falls short of the finals again, who knows, they have a plethora of 3s.
egn, Thanks for saying something about Nellie. If you look at the Mavs teams they are exceptional at moving the ball and shooting. Nellie is a great judge players that can do that. For all of those that think you just don't trade All Stars for guys like Welsch, Mihm, Mills and a 1st then allow me to rewind the clock back to 1996. Dallas traded Jason Kidd a rookie of the year and a triple threat man for... Sam Cassell, Micheal Finely and A.C. Green Cassell and Finely were both role players off of the bench at the time and Green was an over the hill player that was not to far off for retirement. Cassell was later traded but Finely turned into one of the Big Three in Dallas. Nelson then sent a three other players to Phoenix for Kidds back up...Steve Nash. Everyone in Dallas said that Nellie had lost his mind but of course we all know how that turned out. Trades involving stars for lesser known players can be good for both teams. Of course there is always risk.
And also let me add: Look out for Etan Thomas. He's going to be a nice pick-up for someone. It would be nice if the Rockets made a move at him as well.
That's not the point. I don't think Dallas would do their part of the deal without getting something from Boston as well.
Why? the Houston and Boston deal has nothing to do with the Dallas deal at all. They are two totally different deals. The only way they are even conected is the fact that Mihm would give us the player we need to trade away Cato.
Not just Nellie, but credit Mark Cuban for the Maverick's whole scout team. They pretty much set the standard for scouting, in this country and across the world. If Nellie has high praise for a player such as Welsch, then that means something. If the Mavs were not trying to win a title, there is no doubt in my mind that Welsch would not have been parlayed into the deal that got them Walker.
A tip of the hat in respect, for at least trying, crash. And another to egn. I'm not sold on Jiri like the others. He just seems like a typical no-d euro to me. Big deal. We already have a no-d backcourt (fake cuttino rep notwithstanding). He's not a real point. I guess the question is... do the Yao Rockets really need a real point? What do they need to get Yao going and maximize opportunity? I think the answer is they need a guard that can dish, cut and defend, and hit an open j. In an ideal Yao-set, Yao has room to operate with a big 3 and the point, while the 2 and 4 set up a two-man game on the opposite side to spread the defense. It makes the court open like a chinese fan; all the seams and folds are there to expolit. Jiri might be that kind of guy. But probably not. not like say...Ray Allen. Sell everyone but Yao to get him. There's no one on the roster we can't replace.
I like what Jiri brings to the court and on top of that he's young and just getting playing time in the NBA. I'm not saying he is an ideal player, but I do like the trade and what that trade scenario would bring us. If you could get two solid, young players, an expiring contract, and a 1st round pick for Francis, then go for it. I would like to get a star type player for Francis, but realistically, I doubt that is going to happen. To get a player like Ray Allen for Steve would take a 3 team deal, imo. And I am in agreement with you, in that, outside of Yao, there is no one on this team that should be kept from trade talks.
crash, No matter how you cut it, if a team trades an All Star and doesn't get someone with equal value in return, then they lose out. Antawn Jamison cannot defend Western Conference 4's, and his jumper is not good enough for him to be an asset around Yao. He is BY NO MEANS super athletic. SUPER athletic is KG and Marion. Athletic is Rasheed Wallace and Chris Webber. Jamison is below all these guys in terms of athleticism. Aside from that, he makes MAX money. I'd rather give Francis the MAX than Jamison. The only think your trade does is improve Yao Ming at a higher rate than before. I fail to see how the Rockets team as a whole benefit from this trade. I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have Rasheed Wallace for Steve Francis. Francis + Cato + Trade exception for Wallace + Stoudamire I like that one considering Stoudamire's history of playing GREAT alongside Sabonis, and Rasheed Wallace's obvious talents. Aside from that, if we don't like either, then Rasheed walks after the season (15M) and Stoudamire the next season (13M) and we have enough money to sign a MAX FA.
I disagree with you about Jamison but that is fine. You say you don't want to trade an all star un-less you get equall talent well then lets define equal talent. If I get someone back that will stay with in the offense, make good passes on time, make good decissions, hit the outside shot consistently and play honest defense then I say that is more than fair value for Steve. IMO, Steve's value is based largly on his reputation and athlticism and not his on the court performance. I think we can both agree (especially after last nights game) that Steve is just not that great at ball handling, passing, decission making and defense. We can make all the excuses for him we want but we have been doing that for 5 seasons, how long do we continue to make excuses for him before his play is considered unexceptable. Having said all of that I would take Rasheed and Damon in a trade that got rid of Steve. I would much rather have Rasheed in the 4 spot beside Yao than Atawn. I am not sold on Damon but I would take him until someone better came along, I do think he is an upgrade from Steve.
Steve Francis makes my Point Last night the Rockets were leading by 5 points late in the 3rd quarter with all of the momentum. I think it was Cato that poked the ball out on the defensive end to Steve who raced down the court on a fast break. He stopped at the 3 pt line with 3 Phoenix defenders in front of him and no Rockets anywhere close. He had no shot and the smart thing to do would be to pull back until his teammates got into the play and set up a play. What does Steve do? Of course he throws up a 3 from about 2 feet behind the line. The ball clanks off of the rim and with not even a single Rocket there to attempt a rebound the Suns get an uncontested rebound. The suns then come back down the court and score. So instead of the Rockets increasing their lead to 7 the Suns closed the gap to 3 and regained the momentum. The Rockets would never lead by that many again nor would they ever regain the momentum. Middle of the 4th and the Rockets are down by 4 after being down by more. Steve has the ball on the left side of the Court and Yao Ming has posted up his defender and is one on one. Steve looks at him and then decides to take the ball back to the center of the court. He then fumbles his dribble between his legs but maintains control of the ball. Yao Ming is still posted up but now Shawn Marion has moved into the paint just to the left of Yao Ming and slightly behind him. It is at this time that Steve makes an entry pass to Yao Ming. The pass is extremely sloppy and Shawn Marion picks it off. The Suns go down the court and score. The Suns are now up by 6 instead of 2. Late 4th quarter and I think we are down by 6 with about 2.5 minutes to go. Starbury has the ball well beyond the three point line. He cant shake Steve and drives to his left still behind the arc but with 1 sec remaining Steve gets bated into fouling Starbury when he is in shooting motion. Not only was this a shooting foul behind the arc, when it would have been a prayer anyway, but Steve yelled Bullsh!t at the ref drawing a technical. Now instead of time running out with over two and a half minutes remaining and chance for us to cut the lead to 4, Starbury is giving 4 free throws and a makes it a 10 point lead. To add insult to injury the replay showed that it was clearly a foul, Steves right arm hit Starbury's left forearm while he was in fact shooting an off balance shot. Starbury created the contact but it was still a foul. It seems every game that Steve has mental breakdowns like this. Steve is a great talent and super athletic but does he do more harm than good? I think he does. Steve is with out a doubt his own worst enemy. Nobody does more to help the Rockets win...or more to sabotage their games and ultimately their season.
I'm not disagreeing with you on Steve. However, I think Steve is in the process of changing, while we'd have to start the process all over again for Jamison. I think Jamison is a bad passer and a selfish player. Look at his assist numbers, they're unbelievably low. IMO, Jamison will only be succesful in the East where he'll kill all the undersized PF's. But like I said, I'm not prepared to swap headaches - it just doesn't make sense for us. Steve is as good an offensive player, a better passer, almost as good a reboudner, a better DEFENDER, and with the right player, he can actually be succesful at the 1 or 2 spot. The only player that will make Jamison succesful is Kevin Garnett. For Steve, I want someone who can be considered oen of the best at his position.
Holy ****, people hate Steve more than i thought. He is having a bad year, but trade him for that... ....... i say at least give him til the all-star break to adjust, can we?
crash, no way I'd do that Dallas trade, but I'd consider the Boston one. BTW there's a nice article on Jiri Welsch in today's Boston Globe.
