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Example of a trades I'd like to see

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by crash5179, Dec 20, 2003.

  1. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    This trade is proof that I have a little too much time on my hands but I have thought about it and thought I would post it. I have broken down every reason I could think of to make this team and all of the possible benefits. I know ahead of time that these trades will never happen so look at it more as an example of some trades that I think would make us a better team.

    Houston trades: Steve Francis

    To

    Boston for:
    Jeri Welsch 6‘7“ 207lbs 4 year 6million t/opt 06, Chris Mihm 4/years 9 million f/a 04 7’0” 270lbs and Chris Mills 6’7” 220lbs 7 years 33.6million f/a 04 and a 1st round pick

    Houston then trades:
    Kelvin Cato and Eric Piatkowski and a 1st round pick


    To

    Dallas for:
    Atawn Jamison 6’ 9” 225lbs 6/year 80 million play/opt 06 and Marquis Daniels 6’6” 200lbs player min f/a 04

    Why the Rockets make this trade:

    IMO the Rockets are a team with out an identity. Are they an inside out team or an outside in team? Who is the go to man on offense? Steve Francis or Yao Ming? Don’t get me wrong because I am a Steve Francis fan but I just don’t think this team can exist as a legitimate contender until we have a clear cut go to man on this team, someone that the rest of the team knows will but them on his back in the 4th quarter and take the tough shots. We don’t have that now, the real contenders like LA, SA, Min, Sac and Dal all have someone. I think we do as well but he is reluctant to accept that role because he does not want to step on Steve’s toes. Plus I think Steve is reluctant to concede that role and the rest of the team just does not know who’s role that is. Other positives about this trade are that by the time MoT and Jamison’s contracts are up we should know what we have in Ford and Badiane. Another side effect of trading Steve would be the message sent to the rest of the team and to Yao that this is Yao Ming’s team and everyone had better get on board.

    Why Steve Francis should go- I think Steve is a legitimate all star caliber guard…just not a point guard. He has all the tools and can break a mans ankles and fly through the air like few others.

    1. My problem with Francis is his decision making and ball handling, fine for a 2 guard, sub par for a point guard. Francis teases us with plays and sometimes games that makes us think that he is finally getting it and is going to turn into the point guard this team needs, but over the course of the year he has way more bad games than good ones.

    2. His decision making is pathetic, how many times have we seen him pass up the open man under the basket for a much tougher shot?

    3.His ball control is not great to say the least, watching him dribble off of his foot or losing the ball between his legs trying to shake a defender is just getting old.

    4. Turn over, turn over, turn over, this just kills me. He makes more turn overs and then passes the ball to his team mates in a position that sometimes causes them to turn the ball over. Steve Francis is the main reason we turn the ball over more than just about any team in the NBA and he does not appear to be getting any better.

    5. He is not a good passer, he gets the ball into the post late and many times is off target to who ever he is passing to. Better and more accurate passing IMO would make much better shots and a lot more high percentage shots.

    6. I hate seeing Steve get caught up in the personal matches of him vs. Starbury or him vs. Stoudimire, let the other guy get caught up in that and just stay in the game plan. Nothing annoys me more than to see Steve ignore the rest of the team because he wants to go one on one against the opposing PG.

    6. And the last reason why I think Steve should go is because I think he is getting in the way of Yao Ming’s development. Yao Ming still defers to Francis too many times because this is Steve’s team and Yao just does not seem to want to step on Steve’s toes and Steve does not want to give up his spot as the teams main option of go to guy. Too many times over the last two years have we seen Yao Ming start off hot only to be ignored because it was Steve’s turn to get his shots. I will admit that part of this is Yao’s fault but a big part of it is Steve’s fault. I don’t want to compare Steve to Magic but if Magic had passed the ball into the post and his man had an obvious mismatch but passed it back out, even to Magic, then Magic would have been all over him for not taking advantage of the situation.

    Other subtractions:

    Kelvin Cato - I love what the big guy has turned into. He has gone from one of my least favorite Rockets to one of my favorite Rockets. Big Kev has been big this year as well as last year. He has been an outstanding post defender this year. He still has some problems stepping out and guarding some of the more agile Power Forwards in the league but over all still does a good job. Against the Centers in this league he will be asked to step out on the perimeter to guard a lot less. The problem with Big Kev is his lack of offense. On an offense deprived team such as the Rockets we can not afford for a team to almost completely ignore him on the offensive end. On a team with a ton of offensive options this would not be as big of a problem. Cato could provide the size, defense and rebounding for teams needing a defensive presence in the paint. The addition of Chris Mihm would make it easier for us to digest the loss of Cato.

    Eric Piatkowski - probably the best outside shooter on the team but it would be worth giving him up if we could get back Jamison and Daniels from Dallas. Plus the addition of Jeri Welsch adds a younger more versatile outside shooter to the team to replace him.

    The additions:

    Jeri Welsch 6'7" 207lbs- A tall Euro that can shoot the ball. He is already looking like a very good to great player in Boston. He can play either guard spot or the small forward or even a point forward spot. He is a shooter and I think that compliments Yao Mings game better than someone that likes to get his points going one on one and taking the ball to the basket. He is also young and would not come to the team with any preconceived notion about who’s team this is. He would know that if you want to exist on this team then you damn well better pass to Yao Ming and it better be on target at the right time.

    Chris Mihm 7' 270lbs- He has turned into a very good player off of the bench this year. Yes I know it is in the east but he can block shots and is a much better offensive threat than Big Kev. He may be going thru a similar metamorphosis as Cato has experienced the last couple of years. If this is the case then we can re-sign him for next season and if not then his contract expires in the summer and we can cut our losses for cap space.

    Chris Mills 6'7" 270lbs- He’s cap space and his contract expires in the summer.

    Antawn Jamison 6'9" 225lbs- He is an elite scorer and gives the Rockets another offensive weapon on the offensive end. I believe he would keep his defender from sagging over to Yao Ming plus he moves to the basket well enough that if they did Yao would find him with a pass. I know his defense has been questioned but he has tons of athleticism and if JVG can get Stevie to play defense than I think he can get Antawn to play defense as well.

    Marquis Daniels 6'6" 200lbs - This guy is going to be a stud IMO. I think we are looking at another second round steel in the league of Cat, Rashard and Nick the Quick. He is tall and athletic plus he makes a very high percentage of his shots. He could become an outstanding point guard in this league. If he develops we could see him starting at the 1 with Welsch starting at the 3. Daniels is going to be a free agent in the off-season and I would make a serious run at him then even if a trade did not happen for him.

    Other Rockets effected:

    Yao Ming - these moves would make the Rockets Yao Ming‘s team. I don’t know if Yao Ming can be the man to carry a team to the promised land but I think after seeing Francis for 5 years that he most definitely is not the man. We have seen Yao Ming have games that make us think that he is the next great player in this league and then he will have games like he did against Rasho that make you wonder if this guy is even NBA ready. But I think it is important to give the team a firm direction and to find out now if Yao Ming can handle the job that the Rockets drafted him to do. Plus I think this move sends as clear a message to Yao Ming as it does the rest of the team.

    Cat - It looks like to me that Cat has adjusted to JVG’s system a lot better than Francis. He is averaging career highs in F/G percentage ( 46% well over his previous high) and assists ( 3 / game ) plus he is playing the best defense of his career. Cat would be the clear cut number 2 offensive option on this team.

    Why the Celtics make this trade:

    OK the theory here is that a three headed monster of Steve Francis, Ricky Davis and Paul Peirce would be too much for the Celtics to pass up. These three could make up the most athletic and dynamic group ever assembled in the NBA. In the Eastern conference this group could take Boston back to the NBA finals.

    Why the Mavericks make this trade:

    How much better would the Mavs be with Ben Wallace? A lot of people would dramatically increase their chances with him. Well Kelvin Cato may be the next best thing and probably is. Big Kev is not quite the same defender of rebounder as Wallace but he is very good now and is also bigger which may make him better against Shaq and Duncan on the defensive side. The Mavs desperately need a legitimate big man in the middle particularly in the later rounds of the play-offs. Plus Pike gives them a very real shooter off of the bench at the 2 or 3 spots. Daniels was getting almost 9 minutes a game so the Mavs would not have to generate minutes for Pike since trading Daniels frees up minutes. Also Vince Carter was on ESPN radio the other day and basically said that Jamison is not happy with his playing time in Dallas and might like t go somewhere else in the off-season. Not in so many words but that is what he was getting at.

    Salary Cap effect:

    Subtractions by the summer of 04
    Steve Francis - 85 million for 6 years
    Kelvin Cato - 42 million for 6 years
    Chris Mills - 33.6 million for 6 years
    Chris Mihm - 9 million for 4 years
    Marquis Daniels - minimum

    Additions
    Antawn Jamison - 80 million for 6 years
    Jeri Welsch - 6 million for 4 years

    I’m not sure how that translates to next years cap but I think that the subtraction of Mills, Cato, Mihm and Francis makes a substantially positive impact on our salary cap situation even with the addition of Antawn Jaimison’s contract. Couple that with the fact that Eddie Griffin’s 9 million 4 year contract will also be gone and I think we will could actually be players in the free agent market.


    This years impact:
    This trade may actually make it harder for us to make the play-offs this year as people learn each other as well as there new roles but I believe it makes us substantially better in the years to come. It may even make us better immediately since players would know what their roles are on this team and I think the Rockets would play smarter and more like a team on a consistent basis.

    New Rotation would be:

    PG - Jeri Welsch
    G - Cat
    SF - JJ
    PF- Antawn Jamison
    C - Yao Ming

    Subs

    G - Marquis Daniels
    F - MoT
    C- Chris Mihm

    Daniels could sub for either guard spot of for JJ. If Daniels subbed for JJ then he would actually go to the PG position and let Welsch move to the SF spot.

    MoT could come in and sub for Jamison with out a loss of scoring. MoT has looked like a very solid 6th man this year. In some situations MoT could come in and allow Jamison to move over to the SF position if needed.

    Mihm could come in and sub for Yao Ming or Antawn Jamison with out the drop off in scoring that we now experience when Cato is on the floor. Plus Mihm is a good shot blocker…not great but good.

    OK there is my trade proposal. Feel free to tare it apart. I know in advance that this will never happen but it is more of an example of what could possibly happen and something I would like to see happen.
     
  2. oldman

    oldman Contributing Member

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    the boston trade is just terrible. steve francis has a lot more value than that.
     
  3. MManal

    MManal Member

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    The Dallas trade is fine (though I doubt they'd make it), but the Boston trade is terrible. Im just curious Crash, but did you come up with that Welsch trade after watching Jiri's ONE good game of the season on ESPN against Dallas? You are telling me that you want to trade an established All Star in Francis for a Euro that has scored exactly one time over 20 pts this season?

    I am in favor of trading Francis, but you have to get a LOT more in return than a bunch of scrubs from Boston.
     
  4. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Crash -- the spirit is good but instead of two two-way trades, you might have to make it one three-way trade. I suggest you enlist the aid of a capologist (hint-hint, Gator) and/or a trademaster (hint-hint, Hottoddie) to figure the best case scenario for all concerned.
     
  5. egn

    egn Member

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    Don Nelson loves the play of Welsch.


    PG - Jeri Welsch
    G - Cat
    SF - JJ
    PF- Antawn Jamison
    C - Yao Ming

    Subs

    G - Marquis Daniels
    F - MoT
    C- Chris Mihm


    And I like this line-up. Although I would like to see some sort or trade involving Francis + going to the Magic for T-Mac, but I doubt that would happen. Maybe Francis + Cato + 1st round pick would work, but I don't know if Orlando would bite on that either.

    Your line-up is very athletic. I like what Welsch and Mihm bring to the court. Nice write up.
     
  6. TheRockets#1fan

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    No thanks, pass. Steve and Yao compliment each other very well. They both need each other to be effective. Plus, Rockets could way more from trading Steve.
     
  7. pasox2

    pasox2 Contributing Member
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    You have surrounded Yao with shoot-first ballhogs playing out of position. Ugh.

    Yao needs patient, smart partners on the court. The main problems with this team is not that they lack skills; the main problem is that they are dumb and stubborn. If you could just make them execute they should beat the opponent. But they don't.

    I will trade talent for smarts. Bring in Ray Allen. Give Yao someone he can work with.
     
  8. egn

    egn Member

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    This has to be one of the biggest reasons as to why this team will always be hindered by Steve Francis. His selfish play is a result of him thinking that he is the number one option. The result of this is that Yao will defer despite having a clear cut opportunity. This is, imo, the most over-looked consequences to having a former go to option, in Steve, on a team with a new go to option, and new style, in Yao, in the paint.

    And I missed the game versus the Clips, can someone tell me why, despite good first half numbers, did Yao only finish with slightly better numbers? Did JVG keep him on the bench to save his energy, was he ignored, did he just get cold in the second half or did the defense key in to him and double or front him?
     
  9. Sane

    Sane Member

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    If we trade Steve, we better get an All Star calibre Forward in the trade, no doubt about that.

    Antawn Jamison brings the same problems Steve brings. He can't defend a 3 or a 4, and he's undersized for one position while not quick enough for another.

    Are we just trying to move problems?

    Jamison is a black hole as well. He doesn't like giving up the ball.


    If we trade Francis, we need someone back who can regualrly produce 20/10 on a nice FG%, and fits in with Yao Ming.


    Cat has been superb, so trading him is out of the question at the moment, unless something lopsided came up. This means, right now, I'd much rather see us getting a smart veteran backup PG than trade Steve for role players.

    You absolutely NEED at LEAST 2 stars to succeed in this league. Once you trade Steve, Ming will get closer to his potential, but we'll find ourselves looking for another star again, and no one will emulate our stupidity later.
     
  10. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    It is not bad. I definitely see this as improving the Rockets. I think we might be able to get more for Steve though. I would hope for a Ray Allen/Elton Brand/Rashard Lewis level player than a Jiri Welsch+Chris Mihm combo pack. I also have concerns that Dallas would not be willing to do that trade. No matter how much some of these guys like to knock Jamison, he can probably fetch quite a bit more than Cato and Pike. Great job overall though, and much better than most of the trades that get posted around here.
     
  11. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Second that.
     
  12. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    I have liked Welsch for a while. I live in Dallas and Nelson loves the guy. He has been very solid since going to Boston and I really do think that he is going to be an exceptional player. And remember the trade is not just Francis for Welsch. Its Francis for Welsch, Mihm, Chris Mills and a 1st round pick. I was thinking that I may actually be pressing my luck getting all of that for Steve.

    I agree that it is a risk but I am convinced that Welsch will be a damn good player with a deadly outside shot. I believe that Nellie is a outstanding judge of offensive talent and he believes in him.

    Mihm gives us the leverage to trade Cato IMO.

    Mills gives us cap space for the summer and a lot of it.

    A 1st round pick is just that. A 1st round pick.

    Of course like I said this is just an example of a trade I would like to see made.
     
  13. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    I am no capologist but the two trades work fine on realgm.
     
  14. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Sorry, but I think this is a seriously confused statement. Steve Francis might have his things to work on, but he is close to being a franchise player. You don't trade franchise players or stars for players with some promise like Welsch and scrubs like Mihm and Mills, even if you also get a first round pick. This is just silly.
     
  15. thacabbage

    thacabbage Contributing Member

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    If you are going to trade an established All-Star in his prime, you had better be getting more than 2 scrubs and a European guard with "potential." The Rockets CAN NOT afford to lose anymore talent after their numerous front office blunders the last few years.
     
  16. benchmoochie

    benchmoochie Contributing Member

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    How did you determine this after Jiri has started a few handful of games in Boston?

    Also, why Marquis Daniels? Daniels has rarely played this year. Why not Josh Howard? Howard already is a key reserve in Dallas. He's part of the rotation, and he filled in greatly for Finley when Finley was injured. Howard can score, play the D, and Board..
     
  17. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Funny, almost identical posts at the same time :D.
     
  18. aries323

    aries323 Member

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    Why don't we just do this?

    Nachbar for Welsch
     
  19. egn

    egn Member

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    I, as well, live in Dallas and I can attest that Nellie loves this guy Welsch. And when you first glance at this trade you might not see much, but I see two solid players in Mihm and Welsch, cap space in Mills with his expiring contract, and a first round pick. Thats alot in return, imo, for Francis. If a strong PF could then be had to go along side with this trade, then more power to us.

    I think some would be fooling themselves if they think that Francis/Brand deal could be reached. I think they are hoping to land Kobe, and a combination of Bryant and Brand would be something nice to have. The same goes for Rashard Lewis, although to a lesser degree, I feel as if he not attainable in a trade that would give them even more of a jam in the backcourt. On the other hand I do think that Ray Allen could be had for Francis, but again, unlikely to happen as you don't want to send Steve to another Western conference team, imo.

    I do think that management will entertain the thought of trading Francis, but that thought will come in the offseason, after they have had the time to assess the situation. If we miss the playoffs again, I think that Francis will be wearing and Eastern Conference jersey for the 04-05 season.
     
  20. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    I guess that is where you and I disagree. I don't consider Steve a Franchise player anymore than I consider Starbury a Franchise player.

    Franchise players IMO don't make the types of mistakes that Steve has made consistantly during his 5 seasons. I think dillussions of grandure are a big part of Steve's problems.


    Dream was a franshise player as was Moses Malone, Shaq, Duncan, KG, Robinson in his prime, Bird, Magic etc...

    I don't put Francis even close to those players.

    I think Steve is a very good guard put certainly not a franchise level player...at least not IMO.
     

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