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Ex-Aide: Powell Misled Americans

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Batman Jones, Oct 15, 2003.

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  1. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    Step 1: Open Window
    Step 2: Throw any credibility you had out it.
     
  2. michecon

    michecon Member

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    Hmmmmm, not sure about the "most economists thought part". Being an economist myself, here's some tibits without taking a ground on the matter.

    @ The argument for the tax-cut, besides other glory goals, is to give a boost to the economy. To achieve this goal, it's better if tax-cut money is spent, instead of invested.

    @ Usually, less wealthy people tend to spend more of their tax cut dollar than wealthier people, who have smaller marginal consumption ratio and invest more.

    @ It is with the above arguement, many argue a tax-cut geared towards lower tax bracket would benefit the economy more.
     
  3. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    michecon.....everyone should get the benefit of a tax cut......everyone.....it is all our money.

    DD
     
  4. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    In a perfect world, sure. But the argument that the tax cut would boost the economy was inherently flawed. The poorest did not receive a tax cut and they were exactly the ones who would have spent it. The idea that all Americans received a tax cut was just one more in a series of lies from the Bush White House.
     
  5. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    Tax cuts??? This thread has been severely misled----stay on topic boys.
     
  6. Mulder

    Mulder Member

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    in my post "debt" should read "budget deficeit". Doh! No edit.

    bigtexxx: like I validate my credibilty based on what you think of me. sheesh.
     
  7. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Ummmm, how can you give a rebate to people who don't pay any taxes to begin with?


    If you are not participating in the paying of taxes, you certainly don't deserve to participate in the rebate of those taxes.

    Now you are just being silly.

    DD
     
  8. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    I meant the lowest tax bracket, DaDa. Bush promised tax relief to all taxpayers. He lied. Kind of like no child left behind or the clean air act or the AIDS relief to Africa or the war or compassionate conservatism in general. It's a style thing. Say one thing, do another. Works out alright, since most Americans aren't too interested in politics.
     
  9. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    True dat is why we have a representative government.

    We elect em, they make the choices...if the majority don't like those choices, we vote em out.

    DD
     
  10. JeffB

    JeffB Member

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    But the poor, who spend a greater portion of their incomes and for whom the value of each dollary is higher, still pay through regressive taxation--sales taxes, car txes, etc.

    President Bush's cuts have affected the flow of federal funds to states, which are already under financial duress. As a result, state and local regressive taxes are going up further burdening the poor.
     
  11. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    The poorest don't pay income taxes. Must I put up my data ONCE AGAIN? To summarize it briefly, the top 50% of Americans pay 96% of all taxes in the paid in the US. Now quit buying into the liberal propaganda, hook, line and sinker...
     
  12. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Must I put up my data ONCE AGAIN? To summarize it briefly, the top 50% of Americans pay 96%

    Please do. I don't believe you.
     
  13. 111chase111

    111chase111 Member

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    What's funny is when someone comes out and says something that you support you accept it as fact with no questions asked. But if a someone else says something you don't agree with you immediatly question the source. How do you know this guy is telling the truth or doesn't have some kind of personal agenda? I'm not saying he does or doesn't but it's amazing how quickly some of you believe stuff when it supports what you want to believe.
     
  14. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Can someone fill me in regarding what was said on 60 Minutes II, which is what this thread is about? I had a last minute family outing I had to go on. (darn kids!)
     
  15. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Unfortunately, some Republicans will never take their heads out of the sand. Bush could be proven beyond any doubt guilty of a conspiracy to go to war so that his own oil company could run Iraq's oil industry and T_J would say "his company is the most efficient one out there and we will get a great rate of return because the person who owns the oil company is also negotiating for the government."

    Heck, there are STILL people out there who think that Nixon did nothing wrong except get caught.
     
  16. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    I was hoping I wasn't the only one who watched and that someone else would comment. But okay...

    It was very damning. Thielman was Powell's top analyst on WMD intelligence. He'd taken a long-planned retirement a few months before the speech and was flabbergasted (I think that was actually his word) when he saw the speech. Said his initial reaction was very angry but having made an effort to cool down before responding to questions about the speech, he simply characterized it as Powell's lowest moment in a long career of great service to the nation. He said it was disappointing mostly because up to that point Powell had been bringing reason to the White House debates and this speech made it clear that he'd given in and was carrying water for Bush, regardless of what he knew to be true (and not true). He said there was no way Powell believed the aluminum tube story at the time of the speech -- that it had been discredited by all the top experts.

    One of those top experts (sorry, can't remember his name) was interviewed too and he'd also been shocked by the allegation about the tubes, since he knew that they'd all made it clear to the White House that there was no way they could have been used as centrifuges. ('wrong size, three times too thick, definitely would have leaked... no possible way') It wasn't even in question according to this guy. There was no room to disagree -- they just weren't suited for it and, meanwhile, they were perfectly suited to conventional weaponry. In fact they perfectly matched Iraqi rockets. He said when he saw Powell's speech he was sure they'd found something else and was shocked to find that this was the old, roundly discredited theory. 60 Minutes played a clip of Powell admitting the aluminum tube thing was controversial but that most experts agreed with the nuclear theory. They asked their expert (supposedly one of the very top in the field, who is in regular contact with all the other experts) if he knew of anyone who would credit the nuclear theory. He said not a single person he knew of would.

    They also talked to a UN weapons inspector who said the inspection team watched that speech with the anticipation of watching a Super Bowl -- that they were all convinced the United States had been holding back evidence of WMD's and that they were gonna shock the UN with it in the speech. When asked what the reaction to the speech was, he said different guys laughed at different parts. When asked what the reaction was at the end of the speech he said the guys all looked at each other and said, 'They've got nothing.'

    They also showed the surveillance stuff, where Powell pointed to a supposed chemical cleanup truck as a 'signature' of a WMD plant. The UN inspectors said they were sent to the site and it was a firetruck. Said that happened several times -- US surveillance sending them on wild goose chases. When asked if any US intelligence ever led them to anything, he said no, never.

    The most damning thing about the whole report though was Thielman's account. This wasn't an assistant or just some aide -- he was Powell's top WMD intelligence analyst and he had insight into Powell's take on the intelligence. And he was of the strictly clear opinion that Powell knew he was passing off bad information at the UN and that he knew he was misleading them and the American people. When asked why he'd do it, he basically said he must have done it for Bush.

    Bob Dole said it best. "Where is the outrage?" Powell should be fired, Bush should be impeached. Like yesterday. For a while some people tried to say, well you can't blame the White House if they got bad intelligence... They didn't. They got GOOD intelligence and covered it up. They got what they knew to be bad intelligence and passed it off as good. They lied, Americans died. They should be in prison.

    I'll post the transcript when it becomes available. Should be about a week, I think.
     
  17. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    Ok, glynch. For you I will repost my data. The top 50% of Americans in 2001 paid a total of $852,642,000,000 in taxes. The total amount of income taxes paid was $887,882,000,000. This means that the top 50% of Americans paid 96.03% of all income taxes paid. The top 1% paid $300 billion, which is 34% of all income taxes paid. The bottom 50% of wage earners in America paid a measly 3.97% of all income taxes paid.

    I repeat, any tax cut in America will only benefit the top half of wage earners, because the poor don't pay many taxes.

    Examine row 110 of this spreadsheet from the IRS for the data I just quoted:
    http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in01ts.xls
     
  18. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Bigtexx......

    BANG !!! Glynch goes down.....

    Nicely done.

    DD
     
  19. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    DD: Good work not watching 60 Minutes. If you had, even you wouldn't have had good enough earplugs or blinders to continue supporting this criminal administration.
     
  20. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Batman Jones...

    What listening to one man's opinion about the data, would change my mind?

    Nah....I don't care what was said.....I deal in realities, and the reality is that we are in Iraq, and we are there to stay.

    DD
     

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