So don't offer arbitration - just nontender the guy and then make him an offer of $2 mil (or whatever) with incentives like Boston did. If you think he wasn't worth what the Red Sox are going to pay him, say that. But the decision to decline arbitration didn't prevent the Stros from attempting to sign the guy.
I agree with you on this, but I'm just saying I'm not going to rip into the organization for letting him go as I can understand why. Now if they didn't even tender him a contact after refusing arbitration, then I would criticize them because they should have at least tried. However, this wasn't the first time Miller had arm trouble, and his mechanics are the reason why, so I understand the concern from Houston. Boston had less of those concerns because they had 5 starters already so anything Miller gives them is gravy.
OK, consider this: In a way, Beltran's signing does make sense. On Dan Patrick's show last month, the Mets' GM, Omar Minaya spoke emotionally of how he would appeal to Beltran as "one Puerto Rican to another". Don't discount what may have happened when Minaya and Co. trekked down to Puerto Rico and played the "Rican" card. There are 3 million Puerto Ricans in NY which gives them a big leg up in terms of Puerto Rican culture when compared with Houston. Now add in the fact that they gave Boras everything he asked for and it comes as no surprise (to me) that Carlos is headed to Flushing. Would he have been ideal as the face of the Astros? You betcha! Does it look strange that they will pay $17 million to an inferior player in Bagwell but not Beltran? Absolutely! But this is the nature of the beast: the Astros gave it their best shot and lost. In the long run, the best way to get good/great players is to grow them yourself and the Astros have shown that they can find and develop baseball talent. The Astros did nothing wrong - that's just the way the free agent system works: it forces you to deliberately overpay for talent and allows for devious and unscrupulous agents to manipulate and distort the marketplace which is exactly what happened here.
i seriously doubt that was "ALL" that was holding it up course we'll have to listen to your incessant b****ing for the rest of the season believe it'll be ignore list time in a while.
Recollections of 11th hour are two-sided By RICHARD JUSTICE Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle What bothers Drayton McLane even now is that there were never any real negotiations. Only in the final hour or so before Saturday's 11 p.m. deadline did he and Scott Boras have a serious give-and-take about Carlos Beltran. McLane now wonders if Beltran ever intended to sign with the Astros. He wonders if he was used as leverage to get Beltran a deal elsewhere. Boras emphatically denies this. He telephoned Monday to say the deal fell apart because McLane refused to give Beltran the same no-trade clause he had given Andy Pettitte. "We'd agreed on all the economic issues," Boras said. "Drayton stepped up big-time." McLane denies this. These issues are important now only because the perception around the country is that the Astros blew their negotiations with Beltran. McLane, Boras a lot alike I'd promised myself not to type the words Carlos and Beltran until spring training. I promised I wouldn't mention Scott Boras or the phrase "$100 million," either. Yet Boras called to say I'd gotten the story all wrong by portraying him as the money-hungry bad guy. He said it was a fairness issue. One long chat led to a similar one with McLane, and what evolved was a fascinating case study of two bright, stubborn men who cajoled, threatened and bluffed one another for almost three months. They agreed they had come to admire one another, but they disagreed on virtually every detail. When they were done with one another Saturday night, Beltran had a $119 million deal with the New York Mets, and the Astros had a depleted roster and a wasted offseason. The no-trade issue Let's begin with Saturday night's final moments. Boras said he accepted McLane's final offer of $108 million over seven years. McLane said he never went higher than $105 million. Boras said the two sides had agreed on a package of incentives. McLane said they never did. Boras said it was the no-trade clause that ended negotiations. If true, McLane looks foolish. McLane believes if he had agreed to the no-trade clause, there would have been another hurdle. He believes he was trying to hit a moving target. Some teams have ironclad policies against no-trade clauses. But McLane gave one to Pettitte last year. Or did he have one set of rules for Andy Pettitte and another for Carlos Beltran? "Absolutely not," McLane said. "We didn't draw a line in the sand on that. We were prepared to negotiate. We weren't going to the mat over that." McLane acknowledged he had offered only a partial no-trade clause, but he emphasized there were a host of other unresolved issues. He considered all of them negotiable. He said the real problem was that the two sides didn't really begin negotiating until the deadline was closing in. He said he tried to draw Boras into serious discussions several times but was always put off. Several weeks ago, Boras told the Astros they were no longer in contention for Beltran. He said they had failed to reach the seven-year, $112 million threshold that would have gotten them to the next level of bidding. Boras told McLane at least five teams had reached the magical $112 million mark. McLane's five-year, $75 million offer didn't come close. "I told Scott we weren't prepared to go past that," McLane recalled. He suggested the two sides release a joint statement announcing Beltran would be playing elsewhere next season. Boras didn't seem eager to announce the Astros were out of the running. Around then, McLane began to doubt Boras had as many bidders as he said. In the end, Boras apparently found just one team willing to meet his asking price — the Mets. Now Boras and the Astros are spinning their stories like crazy. "The thing that was disappointing is that we never really had any negotiations until Saturday night," McLane said. "We tried. We offered to fly to Puerto Rico. We've negotiated five contracts with Craig Biggio and four with Jeff Bagwell. Every time we did it with the player in the room. I thought if we could all sit down, Carlos included, we could get a deal done." McLane believed serious negotiations would begin Friday morning, when he had been instructed to telephone Boras. Instead, he was told they had nothing to talk about. McLane had increased his offer to $100 million over seven years at that point. Boras told him he wasn't close but that there might be time to salvage something. "I told him, 'Scott, we're running out of time,' " McLane said. "He said he was in intense negotiations with several teams who'd met his threshold." When McLane and Boras spoke at 8:30 a.m. Saturday, there was more of the same. Finally, about 90 minutes before the deadline and almost three months after Beltran became a free agent, Boras and McLane began to negotiate. Boras said they agreed on everything except the no-trade clause. McLane said they never agreed on almost anything. Finally, Boras telephoned McLane a few minutes before 11 and told him Beltran would be playing elsewhere next season. "If we'd had more time, we might have resolved things," McLane said, "but we waited too long to get started. That must have been the plan all along." richard.justice@chron.com http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2987123
good article... points out some vivid details (which we don't know if they are true... but I'll believe Justice before Boras... I can't believe I just said that)... Notice one name that is conspiculously absent in terms of their "true feelings" on the dealing that went down.... Carlos Beltran. Boras kept him at a good distance away from the Astros because McLane would have been able to see in Carlos' own eyes that he really didn't want to come here next year, and thus Boras would not have competition for his big market team. Now, when you think about his wife's comments on how each family member wants a different team... its probably just saying that she liked the Astros, and he was looking elsewhere. Also, you can't downplay the Puerto Rican angle... its huge. Just looking at it from Carlos' standpoint... perhaps he could have become a champion in Houston, but he might be thinking he has a better chance to become a "legend" in NYC.
I can't believe they turned down the Stros' offer to head down to Puerto Rico and then had a big love-fest with the Mets down there. That's cold. the writing was on the wall at that point.
Excellent point. Around the country, we're still seen as a bunch of rednecks. Carlos: Do I play and get adored by a bunch of rednecks, or do I play and get championed by my own people.
I believe Drayton over Boras. Boras played the Astros to get the Mets deal, BUT, and this is a big BUT....Beltran had the final say. DD
I think both are liars and masters of spin, and I wouldn't trust either of their versions of what happened. Drayton lost credibility with his annual complaints about how much money the Astros were losing, even after they moved into the new stadium.
i believe virtually anyone over boras. i won't accept everything drayton says as true...but if you asked me to lean one way or the other, i'd lean against boras. boras uses the media every year to exaggerate claims for bargaining position. that's his very nature.
The thing that keeps killing me, and this is only my opinion, is: If we were never in the running then Boras & Beltran practically ruined our 2005 season with what they did. I'm sure neither of them cares at all about that fact. Had they told us we weren't in it we could've signed other players, but since they used us to simply drive up the price we had all our eggs in one basket and since we lost out we REALLY lost out. They just don't care that our season is down the drain. If you put our team in numbers on a scale from 1-10.... If we had signed Beltran 9/10 If we had signed others instead 7/10 Since we got neither 4/10 (that's being generous) They destroyed us and didn't care. As much as I want to blame Boras for this, he was doing his job. Yes I hate him almost as much as Karla, but I think a majority of the blame goes to Beltran. He cared more about getting a few extra dollars than he did about destroying an entire cities baseball season. Pugs
In hindisight, the Astros should have walked away when Boras told them "they were out of the running since 5 teams have met his goal of $117 million", or they should have just come out and blasted him for that not being true. Every media outlet picked up on Scott's 5 team ploy, yet none of them really made much of it... saying, "but the only two confirmed offers were from the Astros and Mets, and neither of them appears to be near that threshold." The Stros (or the Chronicle) had the perfect opportunity to say that "Scott Boras is full of s***, and we'll refuse to be used." Somehow force Boras into proving otherwise, whether it be a good faith negotiation WELL BEFORE the deadline, or them flat-out saying that they really were not interested. What I do believe: 1. There was never any good-faith negotiations... there was Drayton calling Scott giving him one offer, and then Scott getting back to him saying "We'll get back to you, but you're still in it." That was basically the "negotiations" from the end of the winter meetings till Saturday. An unacceptable practice for both sides. Honestly... teams should employ ex-CIA agents who are human lie-detectors (Jack Burns) to guage whether or not agents/players are being serious when they say certain things. 2. Scott reassured the Astros that they had a shot in this deal to a point that they didn't feel they had to consider any other deals... by not getting into serious negotiations (where you can truly judge one's character) untill the 11th hour, you can do that. Once again, unacceptable way of practicing for both sides... although I believe the Astros really didn't have anybody else in mind that they would have been willing to throw decent money at: 1. Adrian Beltre --- has Hidalgo's one-hit wonder written all over him. Besides, we would have only gone after an OF. 2. JD Drew -- Once again... had been unhealthy his entire career, but finally had one good year (in his FA year, no less). 3. Steve Finley -- At the price he ended up getting, no. He wouldn't have led us to the WS, and he's too old to help build the team around. He's perfect for Anaheim, who would have been contenders with or without him.
You know...another thing that irks me is why the hell didn't anyone get on a frickin plane and go to Puerto Rico??? You say we weren't invited......I say, TAKE THE DAMN HINT RIGHT THERE! Carlos couldn't wait for the Mets and their cast of PR's to get down there...a trip that seems as though it may have sealed the deal at this point. When we weren't invited, it should have been at least a red flag to Drayton and Purpura that perhaps they weren't all that interested in us. You may say that it wasn't a big deal at the time...ok..here's another...Carlos got on a damn plane and went with Boras to the Yankee office in Tampa. You think he would have gone out of his way to meet with ...say...the Reds? How bout the Pirates? No? Yeah I agree....well how about the friggin Astros?????? Hey Drayton and Tim...ever think that maybe...just maybe you could have picked up the damn phone and arranged a meeting in Florida with Carlos? Oh, we weren't invited to do that either I take it. How on God's green earth could Drayton and Tim possibly think that we had a very good chance at this??? HOW???? Drayton pissed away the last month in China and everywhere else but in a face to face meeting with Boras and Carlos..and Purpura? Well God for bid he puts down a damn cheeseburger long enough to realize that he isn't cut out for this job. This is a disgrace.
Your last point is a good one....but your first one isn't. All negotiations were to go throught the agent. You can't just show up and talk to the guy without his agent present.
But we we never even invited to go down. It seemed like 5 minutes after you heard the Mets were interested, Minaya was on a plane to meet with Carlos. I don't know whether or not Minaya had Boras present at the meeting in PR, but if he didn't, it should have been another red flag that we were playing by different rules. If Boras WAS present, that should have been a red flag as well that we didn;t get that opportunity to meet in person. Again, while it may be 20/20 hindsight for me, joe season ticket holder, it should have been overwhelmingly obvious to Drayton and Tim since this is what they do for a living.
NJRocket.... Carlos and Boras did meet with the Astros right after they met with the Yankees.... in their offices in Kissimee. Also, when an agent is supposedly telling you, "don't worry about it... you guys are still in it," the Astros believed him. They had their doubts when they weren't invited to Puerto Rico (even though they offered), but Boras' constant reasurring was what skewed them. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and it basically says the Astros should have never believed anything Boras said... but we can't fault them now. I know I would have been pissed if the Astros had just walked away, when their only competition was the awful Mets. Remember, at the time we all beleived that Carlos wanted to go to a winner... didn't like the big market... his wife preferred Houston... and Boras had said they were "still in it".... NONE of those sentiments changed (amongst us fans) till they finally signed elsewhere. Now, its preposterous to think how skewed we ALL were by Beltran/Boras' leaks to the media.
