Everett and Kent Leading Vote-Getters at Their Respective Positions

This post pretty much summarize your ability to discuss this topic. You pick and choose only the stats that you think help your case, when really they don't.

Craig Wilson has an OPS of over 1.000. I don't care how many times he strikes out, he is having not just a good, but a great season.

Yes, Edmonds & Gonzalez are batting in the 0.250 range. But both have OBP and SLG that are much higher than Biggio's. Let me put it this way, OPS is a much, much, much better tool than simple BA is.

 

Hammer --

my point is that it is difficult to compare what a leadoff hitter is doing to what a power hitter is doing. are you seriously disputing that? how does one compare ty cobb to hank aaron? how do you assess which one is worth more? i realize those are extreme examples, but they serve to make my point.

comparing biggio to bagwell is a difficult task...you need both to make a team go...but look over their careers and tell me which one is more valuable.

i readily recognize that for the purpose of all-star voting, you have to select by OF...not by particular position.

and of course i recognize that biggio is not a traditional CF. i've never said he was. but i'm saying that among leadoff hitters, he's kicking ass right now...and will historically rank among the greatest to have hit in that position...and i'm saying when you judge that against typical 3-4-5 hitters, you're going to get a skewed picture of a comparison.

 

if wilson were batting in the leadoff spot...and he struck out 2x as many times as biggio has...how would you feel about that, OPS aside.

OPS is a neat little stat tool....but it's not necessarily "better."

 

yeah...we've never added good players before.

 

Are you being sarcastic?

 

Who cares about strikeouts? The name of the game is getting on base and advancing runners who are already on base.

Wilson's OBP is 75 points higher than Biggio's and his slugging is 160 points higher!! How can you argue with that?

 

of course.

talent has not been the astros' problem. they had enough to win in 98...and 99...and 01.

 

this is where the stats fail you. of course his OBP is going to be higher...he's the only guy getting intentional walks i would assume...the only one not seeing good pitches. biggio isn't dealing with that. hitting in that leadoff spot is a different animal. and comparing the two is really difficult.

 

are you being sarcastic?

(remember, of course, i'm incapable of arguing baseball, RM95.)

 

I will have to agree with you completely.

You can not compare the power numbers of a leadoff man to a player that bats either in the 3 or 4 slot like Andruw Jones and other Outfielders on this list.

Other players barely have more RBI's and home runs than biggio and he is leading off. meaning he hardly has people on base for him to drive in but he is doing a great job of doing it when he gets that opportunity.

Honestly the only time he gets a chance is when our worst hitters get on base before him. That's when he gets his chance and actually takes advantage of him.

Just take the fact that he is the all time leader in leadoff home runs in the national league and he didn't even start leading off until the end of his career. You can not dispute his value to the team.

Yes i say it is a bit skewed with the Game being here in houston but this is not the first time this happened with the home team voting for their own players. It's a given, but don't knock or try and compare him to somebody that hits in a different place than biggio,

If Jones or any of those guys were leading off would they be producing like he is? Ask yourself that.

 

Wilson has been intentially walked once this season.

To answer your question about how I would like to have Wilson batting leadoff, I would love[/i] to have a guy batting leadoff with an OBP of 0.430.

 

OPS isn't even a statistic, it's the sum of 2 essentially unrelated statistics.

Hammer, Player X has an OPS of .900, Player Y has an OPS of .850. What does that tell you about them? Not a damn thing. All Max is trying to say is that you need a little context.

"Who cares about strikeouts? The name of the game is getting on base and advancing runners who are already on base."

Anyone else see a tiny little contradiction in this sentence?

 

Is there a new rule that lets you advance runners on a strikeout?

 

I'm not talking about the year, or half of a year, in which they added Randy Johnson. That year was comparable to this year in terms of fan excitement and expectations. But other years, I wouldn't say moving old Biggio to the biggest center field in baseball and inserting Jeff Kent into second base put this team over the top and made this city excited of the Astros championship prospects; all the while Wade Miller is your number two pitcher. Miller is a decent pitcher, but a number two on a championship caliber team, get serious. Or maybe it was the aquisition of Vinny Castilla that got your blood pumping. Don't get me wrong, Vinny had a good season for the Astros, but again, hardly the type of player to generate some fan excitement to surround the club. With the exception of a year or two, the Astros have been a team that has overacheived in the regular season and come up short when it counts.

 

Could you please explain to me how Batting Average is ever a better tool than OPS?

 

I agree that Everett shouldn't be an all star starter right now even though he is deserving. However, this is our all star game dammit, and Bagwell and Biggio and Clemens better be there. And don't pull this bull**** bags/bidge don't deserve it on me either, since biggio has an .880 OPS, and bagwell at .896. The 3 most deserving Stros are Berkman, Kent, Clemens. But you are absolutely right I voted 25 times to put bags/biggio in the game. They have numbers good enough to be there and it's in their home ball park. That means something whether you want to believe it or not.

And as far as Edmonds/Gonzalez compared to biggio are concerned, the OPS's are within 10 points of each other, so how in the world can you criticize putting biggio(a hometown icon) before them? Yes Craig Wilson deserves it btw. As far as 1st Base, bagwell is stuck with the group of casey, overbay, helton, pujols. But his numbers are certainly worthy of all star status and as an astros fan I want biggio/bagwell/clemens at the game, because of what they mean to the organization and the city. Plus it's not like they aren't having all star consideration worthy seasons.

I can understand your frustration, and I totally agree on Ausmus/Ensberg. But as far as the rest of the voting, Sammy Sosa doesn't deserve to be voted in, and Renteria shouldn't be 2nd in shortstops this year.

That shows that their are worse players being voted in than bagwell/biggio based on numbers this season. And when you factor the game being in Houston, with all they mean to the team, city and the baseball, they should be represented there, and if they were sucking just give them honorary positions in, but they aren't so that point is moot.

 

I like how whenever asked who's having a better year than Biggio Hammer lists all the players who have a better OPS stat.

Think the Suzuki vs Giambi 2001 MVP vote. Suzuki's OPS was hovering around .800+ all season about .300 points lower than Giambi's number. You cant compare the value of those 2 since they're completely different players.

The fact remains that there are a lot of players that dont deserve to be in the all-star game every year, why are you acting as if youre some pioneer to this injustice and trying to revolutionize a movement to take voting out of the fans hands? I hear it every year, fans will vote for who they want to see whether its Nomar, Jeter, Griffey, Sosa, etc etc -- Cal Ripken back in 2001 was voted in because it was regarded as his last season in the majors despite batting around .230 at the time, (he finished the season with a .637 OPS Hammer)