Evangelicals Returning to a Christian Perspective Even on US Wars?

Appologize for delaying the thread, I was just trying to get a clarification on this, hope rhester and MadMax could chime in on it.

 

As the other poster said, the covenant was with Abraham's line through isaac. He made a separate covenant with Ishmael, who was Abraham's illegitimate son through Hagar.

 

yes they are

 

I think that a discussion into the specifics of Revelations and any possible parallels with todays world situation would be an interesting thread.

I do believe that one of the underlying reasons for the seemingly mindless support of Isreal no matter what they do might have it's roots in the whole Armageddon scenario.

thoughts?

 

War? What war? I thought gay and abortion trump all?

 

My "mindless" support of Israel has nothing to do with the Armageddon scenario. God chose them first, and as someone who respects his elders and God's wisdom, I defer to his judgment. BTW, for all the persecution that the Jews have faced over the centuries, I think maybe a little "mindless" support wouldn't be too bad for them, not that I'm a fan of affirmative action or anything

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/08/n...&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

Evangelical Leaders Join Global Warming Initiative
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Despite opposition from some of their colleagues, 86 evangelical Christian leaders have decided to back a major initiative to fight global warming, saying "millions of people could die in this century because of climate change, most of them our poorest global neighbors."

Among signers of the statement, which will be released in Washington on Wednesday, are the presidents of 39 evangelical colleges, leaders of aid groups and churches, like the Salvation Army, and pastors of megachurches, including Rick Warren, author of the best seller "The Purpose-Driven Life."

"For most of us, until recently this has not been treated as a pressing issue or major priority," the statement said. "Indeed, many of us have required considerable convincing before becoming persuaded that climate change is a real problem and that it ought to matter to us as Christians. But now we have seen and heard enough."

The statement calls for federal legislation that would require reductions in carbon dioxide emissions through "cost-effective, market-based mechanisms" — a phrase lifted from a Senate resolution last year and one that could appeal to evangelicals, who tend to be pro-business. The statement, to be announced in Washington, is only the first stage of an "Evangelical Climate Initiative" including television and radio spots in states with influential legislators, informational campaigns in churches, and educational events at Christian colleges.

"We have not paid as much attention to climate change as we should, and that's why I'm willing to step up," said Duane Litfin, president of Wheaton College, an influential evangelical institution in Illinois. "The evangelical community is quite capable of having some blind spots, and my take is this has fallen into that category."

Some of the nation's most high-profile evangelical leaders, however, have tried to derail such action. Twenty-two of them signed a letter in January declaring, "Global warming is not a consensus issue." Among the signers were Charles W. Colson, the founder of Prison Fellowship Ministries; James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family; and Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Their letter was addressed to the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group of churches and ministries, which last year had started to move in the direction of taking a stand on global warming. The letter from the 22 leaders asked the National Association of Evangelicals not to issue any statement on global warming or to allow its officers or staff members to take a position.

E. Calvin Beisner, associate professor of historical theology at Knox Theological Seminary in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., helped organize the opposition into a group called the Interfaith Stewardship Alliance. He said Tuesday that "the science is not settled" on whether global warming was actually a problem or even that human beings were causing it. And he said that the solutions advocated by global warming opponents would only cause the cost of energy to rise, with the burden falling most heavily on the poor.

In response to the critics, the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, the Rev. Ted Haggard, did not join the 86 leaders in the statement on global warming, even though he had been in the forefront of the issue a year ago. Neither did the Rev. Richard Cizik, the National Association's Washington lobbyist, even though he helped persuade other leaders to sign the global warming initiative.

On Tuesday, Mr. Haggard, the pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, said in a telephone interview that he did not sign because it would be interpreted as an endorsement by the entire National Association of Evangelicals. But he said that speaking just for himself, "There is no doubt about it in my mind that climate change is happening, and there is no doubt about it that it would be wise for us to stop doing the foolish things we're doing that could potentially be causing this. In my mind there is no downside to being cautious."

Of those who did sign, said the Rev. Jim Ball, executive director of the Evangelical Environmental Network: "It's a very centrist evangelical list, and that was intentional. When people look at the names, they're going to say, this is a real solid group here. These leaders are not flighty, going after the latest cause. And they know they're probably going to take a little flak."

The list includes prominent black leaders like Bishop Charles E. Blake Sr. of the West Angeles Church of God in Christ in Los Angeles, the Rev. Floyd Flake of the Greater Allen A.M.E. Cathedral in New York City, and Bishop Wellington Boone of the Father's House and Wellington Boone Ministries in Norcross, Ga.; as well as Hispanic leaders like the Rev. Jesse Miranda, president of AMEN in Costa Mesa, Calif.

The evangelical leaders are meeting Wednesday with senators or their staff members concerned with legislation on energy and the environment. Their letter commends senators who last year passed a resolution by Senators Pete V. Domenici, a Republican, and Jeff Bingaman, a Democrat, both of New Mexico, which called for regulatory measures like a cap and trade program, a system in which industries would buy or trade permits to emit greenhouse gases.

In their statement, the evangelicals praised companies like BP, Shell, General Electric, Cinergy, Duke Energy and DuPont that it said "have moved ahead of the pace of government action through innovative measures" to reduce emissions.

The television spot links images of drought, starvation and Hurricane Katrina to global warming. In it, the Rev. Joel Hunter, pastor of a megachurch in Longwood, Fla., says: "As Christians, our faith in Jesus Christ compels us to love our neighbors and to be stewards of God's creation. The good news is that with God's help, we can stop global warming, for our kids, our world and for the Lord."

The advertisements are to be shown in Arkansas, Florida, Kansas, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee and Virginia.

The Evangelical Climate Initiative, at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars, is being supported by individuals and foundations, including the Pew Charitable Trusts, the Hewlett Foundation and the Rockefeller Brothers Foundation.

The initiative is one indication of a growing urgency about climate change among religious groups, said Paul Gorman, executive director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment, a clearinghouse in Amherst, Mass., for environmental initiatives by religious groups.

Interfaith climate campaigns in 15 states are pressing for regional standards to reduce greenhouse gases, Mr. Gorman said. Jewish, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox leaders also have campaigns under way.

 

Great news, Max, it's heartening to see evangelical leaders in America thinking 'global' and worrying about the well-being of others around the world. It's true that global warming might not be a huge deal for the US, but it's bound to have an enormous effect on those least fortunate in the world (which as much as we hate admit is the majority of the world who are poor).

Jesus urged us to take care of the least fortunate amongst us and to look out for their interests, Muhammed urged Muslims to do the same, MLK urged us to do the same, Ghandi urged us to do the same, we should always be mindful of the least fortunate amongst us.

 

Other news of relevance:

http://www.uwosh.edu/colleges/cols/religion_science_collaboration.htm

 

well...the phrase "mindless support" was irt some of the crap the State of Israel does and nobody in our government will condemn.

Im sure I dont need to pull up references, those topics have been hashed over pretty thoroughly here.

Supporting eveything they do becasue of what happened to them in the past goes against my grain....especially when we had zero to do with the Holocaust.
What matters to me is what they do as a nation today...and they appear to be no more willing to settle for peace than their hostile neighbors...and I have a real problem with that...especially when it damages our image to be seen as supporting them n o matter what.

 

Well, *we* did, big time.

First of all, there are well documented facts about IBM's role in the Holocaust.

Some other notable individuals and famous American companies that were involved with the Fascist regimes of Europe are: William Randolph Hearst, Joseph Kennedy (JFK’s father), Charles Lindbergh, John Rockefeller, Andrew Mellon (head of Alcoa, banker, and Secretary of Treasury), DuPont, General Motors, Standard Oil (now Exxon), Ford, ITT, Allen Dulles (later head of the CIA), Prescott Bush (Dubya's granddaddy), National City Bank, Coca-Cola, and General Electric.

William E. Dodd, the US Ambassador to Germany, gave important insight into German and American economic alliances. He wrote in 1937 the situation in general that:

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime."

"Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there."

All in all, American corporate investments in Germany grew by almost 50% between 1929 and 1940, while declining in the rest of continental Europe.

[For those who are curious and not faint hearted, there is a much boarder and in-depth review (where I cited the above statements) on the complex history of American Fascism.]

 

You're right in this aspect, some American corporations obviously had vested interest in supporting leaders who were pro-capitalism; fascism embodies an economic system that Mussolini called the "corporatist state", so some major American corporations were interested in propping up and supporting Hitler and Mussolini and other fascist movements in Europe for that very reason, it was good for business (much like it's good for business for Google to cooperate with China, or for Big Oil to have the Royals in Saudi remain in power, etc.)

 

Don't leave out Herbert Walker the father-in-law of Bush Sr.
Prescott Bush, Herbert Walker, Avril Harriman, Allen Dulles, Roland Harriman, the Rockefellers etc etc ALL were partner to Nazi Fritz Thyssen who was the billionaire backbone of Hitler providing the war steel for the Nazis (Thyssen wrote the book 'I paid Hitler' if you could ever get a copy read it) These so called Americans also banked Nazi I.G. Farben who put the gas in the gas chambers. This evil cartel of globalists comitted treason against this nation. Only their millions of $$$$ and political power saved them from prosecution except that their Nazi front organizations were all seized by the U.S. government.

These men weren't just capitalists looking to make a buck- they were Nazis (at best they were working with and for Hitler's vision) plain and simple. Research it.
Global corruption runs deep in the blood of the Bush family line.

 

is it me or doe sthe majority off the Christian posters in D&D have an unfravorable opinion of Bush?

 

that might reflect the fact that a majority of American do as well.

 

power corrupts. how very scary.

 

When you worship the all-mighty Dollar, and that's where your loyalty begins and ends, then you're corrupt to begin with, because you're morally bankrupt.

Capitalism without ethics is a scary, scary thing...

 

Not trying to derail (I don't have to try! ), but what is this "witness" thing? Seriously, I have no idea what he's saying, or trying to say, in that context. Remember, I'm agnostic, the Rockets have had their first half bumped from LP, and I'm not attempting to make fun of anything.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

On the issue of whether John was dreaming in Revelation:
Chapter 1 verse 10 in part, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day..." Interpret this how you like. Many believe John was seeing a vision.

Deckard, a Christian's "witness" is his example of Christ to non-believers. Using biblical terms, it is one's witness (lifestyle, words, deeds, personal testimony, etc) that a Christian uses to let his light shine in the darkness of unbelief. Charles Marsh is obviously concerned that the pro-war positions taken by many Christian leaders in America has made it more difficult to accomplish the primary purpose of the Gospel: Making believers out of non-believers. If people equate Jesus and the Gospel with supporting the Iraq war, that puts a big roadblock in front of the megamillions who decry the war.

One thing that many people don't realize is that not all evangelicals subscribe to the Religious Right's politics. In fact, Rick Warren ("America's Pastor") has gone out of his way to say that many times. And on the subject of damaging one's witness, I'll use my sister as an example. It has been extremely difficult to reach her because she almost feels like she must become a right wing Republican if she becomes a Christian. She is an anti-Republican to the core. Even though she knows I am too (unlike her I'm anti-Democrat too), "leaders" like Pat Robertson scare her. IMO, it's almost like the Religious Right has hijacked the Gospel and made conversion a political decision for some people instead of a spiritual decision. One time I heard a man I respect say over the pulpit in slight jest, "You can vote for Bush of your choice". This made me very sad because I can just imagine what some guests, and members, of that church were thinking about the remainder of that service.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks, apostolic3. I was tempted to crack a joke about the movie with Harrison Ford, which was excellent, had it's own morality play within the action, but couldn't possibly be what the gentleman was referring to.

All kidding aside, I think you make an terrific point... I know of several young people (I have a 14 year old son, and a 10 year old daughter, with both being very precocious) who are very close to dismissing religion out of hand, because of what they view as the hypocrisy of the Religious Right in it's apparent willingness to ignore the hypocrisy of George Bush. Having become a parent rather late in life, I'm astonished at how firmly they are against this war, and war in general. When I was a kid, we celebrated WWII, and played at being soldiers. I don't see that today. Does anyone else?



Keep D&D Civil.