tap the brakes, son. This is misleading some countries have evolved since the 1940s -- others have not
I just wanted to nuance the numbers here. I do not think that any of the other religious groups are more tolerant with other religions. I thought that the third part was clear. It is sad that there seems to be little tolerance in those countries. We agree on that part SJC. The thing we differ from each other is that I do not think that alienating and demonizing a certain culture will improve the tolerance among them. Extremism breeds extremism, and tolerance causes tolerance. I also want to add that I think it is weak attack SJC on what Germany during WO2. It was terrible what the nazis did, but the current Germans are not to blame what happened during WO2. It is a weak excuse to keep on using. I do not agree with SJC on many things when it comes to his point of view on Islam, and i can understand that people get frustrated with dome of his threads, but it is unnecessary to use the WO2.
Thank you for your post, arno_ed, I appreciate it. I wish I could agree with you on the part I quoted. I understand where you are coming from and I admire the tolerant mindset. But when you look at recent history in Europe and especially at your own country, I think the Netherlands have been one of the most tolerant societies (of anything...immigrants, drug policy, gay rights, etc.) which has been great for decades. Do you think that this tolerance actually caused tolerance among certain immigrant groups? From recent events and from having been in the Netherlands frequently myself, it unfortunately seems more like certain groups view tolerance as weakness they try to exploit. If you grew up in a society with warped views and are taught from early childhood that Jews are the devil and that "infidels" have a lower value than "believers" and that if someone behaves in a certain way (drinks and doesn't dress "modestly"), and then you come into an open, tolerant society like the Netherlands...what do you think happens? I think we have seen some of it. All that said, I agree with you that repression is not the answer. But we can also not be completely naive and think that everyone will appreciate and respect our freedoms as much as we do. Some will come and fight them and try to bring their close-minded world view to our countries. That would not be that much of a problem if it didn't affect others - it affects the women they bring into our countries (although they now live in a tolerant society, they are treated as if they didn't, in many cases) and it also affects the way these people treat other women and, e.g., homosexuals. I am not sure what the right answer to this is (I guess education, dialogue, etc.), but when it goes too far, you have to draw a line.
That's incorrect. Everyone has evolved, some slower and some faster. None of these countries we've mentioned have not evolved except perhaps the Palestinians. But that doesn't mean things can't change. It was not so long ago that today's peacemakers were engaging in ethnic cleansing, and today's terrorists were peacemakers. In fact it was in 2010 when SOMEONE FROM THE BOARD actually said that Middle Easterners don't value democracy. **** done changed. Obviously, yes, Germany is not the worst in the world today and I do not have any disdain for Germans or Germany because of their nationality. But for a German to be out here being critical of Middle Eastern sentiment towards Israel is ridiculous. Any educated person understands that Middle Easterners are more resentful towards Israel and Israelis because we are all forced to share a region with them because their entire race (and then some) did not feel safe enough to spend another day in ex-Germany. So after his country engaged in those horrific acts and either expelled or granted departure or subsidized the departure of the Jewish population, he is turning around and being critical of those who were forced to accept sharing newly-created and always-expanding borders? So please, tell me, should Middle Easterners be gushing about all this, especially that Palestine is not being granted statehood, and that Israel's nukes are threatning the future of the entire Middle East, etc..?
Nope, it is not. I can be critical of whomever I want. I was born in 1971. All the horrible atrocities in Germany took place until 1945. In fact, when I see all the hate that is being spread against Jews in the Arab world, if anything, I should especially speak up against that, being German. You are "forced to share a region"? What the hell. As if your life in Dubai is in any way negatively affected by Israelis occupying a small piece of land somewhere not that far away. We all share a planet. Your mindset is very revealing. "Forced to share a region"...very telling.
I've always said you share a similar mentality with extremists, and it's never been clearer than in this post. So those whose lives were negatively affected by Israelis occupying a small piece of land close by have every right to be furious? Who else follows this line of thinking?
It is very clear to everyone here who the extremist is - that would be you. This thread once again serves to remind everyone of that.
Yes I think so. IMHO there is not such a big problem as some people make it out to be. The Netherlands used to be tolerant, but for the last 10 years that has not been the case anymore. How do people exploit tolerance? By having a different culture in the netherlands than the dutch culture? I see the many different cultures in the netherlands as a enrichment of the dutch culture. I think that after a adaptation period people will see the errors of their ways. That has happened in the past. With the Moluccans there were much more problems with integrating, especially with the second generation in the 70. but now the third generation are integrated (without losing their culture completely). And what is the difference between the situation you have sketched and the current Dutch/Western. Now many westerns are saying that Muslims are the devil and that "infidels" have a lower value than "believers". So if someone who has a close mind comes in a culture that is very negative about their culture their strange preconception (that other cultures hate their culture) is actually confirmed Like I said before if you leave people the freedom to find their own way in the modern society that is based on personal freedom most of them will find their way. Of course the more extreme people will not accept that others have other opinions (the same for any extreme religious group, the conservative christians, jews, are not more tolerant towards people with another opinion than the Muslims). But IMHO the majority of the people will.
There were a lot of problems on the national team as well, no? Then again, some of your best players ever had their roots there. I don't know any Westerners who say that. I do know a lot of Westerners who have made negative experiences with a negative attitude by some immigrants, though. This is definitely not true for all immigrants. But percentage-wise, certain cultural differences seem to have led to a large percentage of those negative experiences, e.g. German women having been treated with disrespect. I think you are confusing cause and effect to some extent. It is probably something that goes both ways. Some people are prejudiced from the beginning. That includes both people from the "host country" and immigrants. As I have a 50 % migration background myself, I am very aware of these issues, but I don't know of any cases of Koreans in Germany having had trouble with the law or having caused problems. There are certainly also cultural differences and most Koreans I know still practice their own culture to some extent in Germany, but they respect the host country and are thankful for the opportunity. The examples I have seen first-hand of immigrants who absolutely do not act that way have been from Africans (I don't know which religion) and, mostly, from people from the Arab world. Again, that definitely does not mean the majority of them, but certain attitudes (e.g. towards women and homosexuals) seem to make integration into a "liberal" western society more difficult. It probably has a lot to do with the educational background and a lack of a cultural emphasis on education, too, to be fair. Religion is definitely not the only cause. I would agree, but that only works as long as the liberal culture that allows people to find their own way prevails and, to some extent, is enforced. If you allow people to import cultural traits of oppression in very large numbers, then the people who are oppressed will not have the ability to find their own way. That's probably where you and I disagree. I say that if the culture in Saudi-Arabia is that women cannot drive and cannot make their own decisions, then we have to actively empower them if they come to a Western country and sanction behavior by their men that attempts to perpetuate such oppression, even though they are in a liberal society now. Hopefully you are right. I think we disagree about the level of intervention necessary to achieve that goal (e.g., I am in favor of a ban of full veils, I assume you are against that), but I respect your opinion.
An interesting article explaining how as usual conservative Israelis and their allies try to use the killing by one lone nut to help them with their problems in Israel. Fanning fears of anti-semitism is their usual tact. http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/the-t...-false-specter-of-european-anti-semitism.html BTW interesting how when an American soldier murders 17 Afghans it is a lone nut and when an American kills an Iraqi women in a hijab in CA it is a lone nut, but when a single muslim guy kills a Jew or a westerner it is Islamic terrrorism and reflective of all muslims. *** The anti-Semitic killings in Toulouse, France last week predictably led a slew of Israelis to raise the specter of European anti-Semitism. This scary prospect was invoked to promote the idea of Israel as the only safe home for Jews. But a close reading of the evidence on anti-Semitism in France, and in Europe as a whole, reveals the specter to be a cheap political trick, perhaps meant to help fix Israel's "demographic problem." Israeli Members of the Knesset Danny Danon (Likud) and Ya’akov Katz (National Union) led the way in exploiting the murders. The Times of Israel reports: MK Ya’akov Katz called Monday for Jews to leave France in the wake of a deadly attack on a Jewish school in Toulouse. “There is no Jewish future in France,” Katz, of the National Union party, said, adding that the state of Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and that Jews should not trust their fate to “Sarkozy, Obama or other world leaders...” In the wake of the deadly attack, MK Danny Danon (Likud), called for an urgent session Tuesday of the Knesset’s Immigration, Absorption and Diaspora Affairs Committee, which he chairs, to discuss the attack. “We will not allow the pogroms of the beginning of the 20th century to return to Europe,” Danon said. ... Katz and Danon are expressing the basic Zionist principle that Jews will never be safe in Europe and that Israel is their haven. The Anti-Defamation League is also peddling a similar line of thought. “ADL Survey In Ten European Countries Finds Anti-Semitism At Disturbingly High Levels,” read the headline on a survey released March 20, a day after the killings in France. But decades after the Holocaust, just how bad is it for Jews in Europe? It’s nowhere near the point of “pogroms,” to say the least. Anti-Semitism in Europe exists, for sure. But Dov Waxman, an associate professor of political science at Baruch College, takes a close look at the evidence on anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe in an excellent piece of analysis on +972 Magazine. His takeaway: The truth is that anti-Semitism in France and in Europe as a whole, though it certainly exists, is not nearly as great a danger as many outside observers in Israel and the United States believe. While the threat of anti-Semitism is real and must be taken seriously, it should not be exaggerated or blown out of proportion. In fact, far from being on the verge of catastrophe, European Jewry is experiencing a renaissance that we should be celebrating.
There is also a rise in neo- natzihs all throughout europe. Our chosen people can't catch a break, attacked by both muslims and neo-natzihs. Our muslim brothers can't catch a break, attacked by a holier god in the name of democracy. it's an endless and vicious cycle.
