1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Europe is falling apart---close to bringing the whole world down.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Northside Storm, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    [​IMG]

    Capitalism run amok. Note where the divergence begun. Sure, a lot of bad things were propped up by plain silliness, but never forget that it was the uncontrolled shadow banks that brought the system down, and they have not even begun to pay back for what they have done.
     
  2. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/11/jpmorgan-var-idUSL1E8GBKS920120511

    How can anyone still hold onto the dying notion of VaR models?

    Wall Street never learns.

    We'll see who's been swimming with the sharks as soon as the market takes its' bite.
     
  3. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,125
    Likes Received:
    22,596
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/26/uk-economic-outlook-worse-eurozone-bank-england

    Also, Cyprus announced that it needs a bailout.

    Things are gloomy.
     
  4. AroundTheWorld

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    83,288
    Likes Received:
    62,282
    Didn't Dubai need a bailout from Abu Dhabi?

    Things are gloomy.
     
  5. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    23,995
    Likes Received:
    11,174
    Why can't we just expedite some of the bankruptcies? This is getting to be absurd.
     
  6. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    23,995
    Likes Received:
    11,174
    It looks like the creation of the Euro is the oddity in that graph.
     
  7. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    It wouldn't have been a significant problem, or as worse as it is now, if someone hadn't sank the American banking system and torpedoed everybody's credit risk appetite, domestic banks and budgets. Ex: Crushing Lloyds and RBS.

    Also, bond yields post-euro were also a reflection of fair market views of the situation---another strike for the "efficient markets" hypothesis.

    With that said, I am no fan of the Euro and disguising poor debt, but the markets were, and we are all paying for it now that the tide has fallen.
     
  8. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    http://www.businesslive.co.za/world...kel-buries-euro-bonds-as-summit-tension-rises

    ...sigh.
     
  9. AroundTheWorld

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    83,288
    Likes Received:
    62,282
    Well done, Merkel.
     
  10. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    It's an open question why Merkel can't just bailout the German banks who are holding half the mess on this, instead of making other countries suffer through bleeding processes for bond-holders. It's why, ultimately, I think every solution on the table is something that will be considered. Germany can't afford to have another Eurozone member fail outright, though one wonders at the choice of protracted suffering for countries that quite honestly can't pay, and will definitely not be able to pay after austerity. A structured bankruptcy probably would be best at this point for countries that are too far down the rabbit hole (looking at you Greece.)

    She's somehow managed to create a system that shafts private bond-holders (by giving the ESM et. al first scraps at the table), and sovereign bond-sellers (whose yields will rise as their private debt-holders are displaced by either the ECB, the EFSF, or the ESM). German impairments on the ECB mean it can't even act as a full central bank---exactly when Europe NEEDS a full central bank. German views on inflation are foolhardy---debt deleveraging is pulling prices down, Europe is falling apart, and Germany is concerned about inflation?! The only people benefiting from this system are the ESM et. al, but they're not profit-maximizing institutions, they're supposed to be there to benefit the system!

    It makes no sense. If there are a series of lost decades in the developed world, a large part of the blame will rest squarely on the shoulders of Merkel.
     
  11. AroundTheWorld

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    83,288
    Likes Received:
    62,282
    Intern, you are always wrong on everything, so that gives me even more confidence that Ms. Merkel is doing the right thing.
     
  12. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    The funny things is, the worse news gets, the better. People are starting to have to react. You referred to the 5-4 split in the BOE's decision to expand asset purchases---the Fed and China's government are in the hot-seat as well. The expectation of stimulus is the only thing keeping markets alive at this point.

    Problem is, you always need to beat expectations. It's why the market jumped when Yellen pulled her best dovish speech, and was crushed when the Fed opted "merely" for expansion of Operation Twist.
     
  13. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    23,995
    Likes Received:
    11,174

    What do you mean by the bolded?
     
  14. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    I mean that in 2008, the American banking system failed. I don't want to get in a whodunit in this thread (outside the scope), but the cascading wave outwards definitely hurt Europe significantly by a) crushing European banks, b) putting European budgets under further strain, and c) making market agents severely risk-averse, and able to shoot yields up in a matter of seconds. In many ways, the European debt crisis is just another chapter in 2008---except, while the American banks had an unbounded Fed, and the ability to directly re-cap their troubled banks, Europe does not have that ability on a coordinated basis. Therefore, this is being played out much longer than it should be.
     
  15. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,691
    Likes Received:
    16,228
    Certainly - because it eliminated currency risk. If you assume no country will actually fail (the going assumption until 2008), and both Greece and Germany are using Euros, why would you buy German bonds at 4% if Greek bonds were going for 8%? (specific numbers are just examples)

    The reason you had differing yields before was that you had the individual country and currency risk - you'd pick 4% German bonds because the Drachma might lose value despite a 8% return. When you take out that risk, all the yields merge. This is one (of many) reasons the Euro concept was so ridiculous.
     
  16. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    So it turns out that LIBOR, the London Interbank Offering Rate...the benchmark of world interest rates, and the foundation of private interest rates and the reference rate used in some part in the Taylor rule that is a guideline for central bank interest rates...is possibly based on a lie.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...or-chief-executive-Bob-Diamond-to-resign.html

    Cameron says Barclays has 'serious questions to answer' amid calls for chief executive Bob Diamond to resign

    David Cameron said Barclays' board had "serious questions to answer" over Libor fixing as George Osborne prepared to address Parliament about the scandal amid calls for Bob Diamond, the bank's chief executive, to resign.

    At this point, the Easter bunny is more believable than the s*** that is currently posing as a financial system.
     
  17. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    If there are no criminal proceedings based on this, the system is completely f**ked. People are killing themselves in the street in Greece to pay the banks back their loans, and it turns out they make a nice side-line manipulating key interest rates through fraud?!?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/27/barclays-libor-trader-talk



    The FSA report details numerous messages sent between Barclays traders and the bank's "submitters" – whose role was to send accurate information about interest rates to the British Banking Association. The submitters are not supposed to be influenced by traders.

    Trader "When I retire and write a book about this business, your name will be written in golden letters."

    Submitter "I would prefer this [to] not be in any book!"

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Submitter "Hi all, just as an FYI, I will be in noonish on Monday."

    Trader "Noonish? Who's going to put my low fixings in? hehehe."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Submitter "[A manager has] asked me to put it lower than it was yesterday … to send the message that we're not in the ****."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Submitter to manager: "We are therefore being dishonest by definition and are at risk of damaging our reputation in the market and with the regulators."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Trader to manager, complaining about a submitter: "[He is putting in] the highest Libor of anybody … He's like, I think this is where it should be. I'm like, dude, you're killing us."

    Manager to trader: "Just tell him to keep it, to put it low."

    Submitter "[I will] see what I can do."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    External trader to a Barclays trader, asking for a lower Libor submission: "If it comes in unchanged I'm a dead man."

    Barclays' trader promises to "have a chat".

    External trader to Barclays' trader later that day: "Dude. I owe you big time! Come over one day after work and I'm opening a bottle of Bollinger."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Trader "Coffees will be coming your way, either way, just to say thank you for your help in the past few weeks."

    Submitter "Done … for you big boy."
     
  18. AroundTheWorld

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    83,288
    Likes Received:
    62,282
    I agree that the big banks are full of crooks and that the illusion of Chinese walls within these banks is ridiculous. A lot of them should be broken up and some people jailed.

    One problem is that hardly anybody in politics or law enforcement understands the whole issue enough to really go hard at these banks, and those who understand it make a killing off of it.

    There should be someone like Elliot Spitzer to bring these crooks down.

    What would you suggest to get this fixed?
     
  19. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/06/28/swiss-libor-probe-idINL6E8HS3WZ20120628

    Swiss Libor probe to take another two years

    Barclays not among the banks being investigated

    What the f**k. The whole system is looking more and more like a huge lie. What solutions there can be must first have to see as to the extent of this rot.
     
  20. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/201...ulation-done-for-you-big-boy/#comment-2380701

    What...the...f**k.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now