What you favor is to allow him the opportunity to use that forum to spin, decry the media, and promote his political agenda. Things that are popular on his show where his listeners make up angry white males and staunch right wing conservatives but not quite so popular on a sports show where the listening audience isn't as prone to accept that type of propaganda. Agreed. It isn't my cup of tea, may not be yours, but I don't watch NFL Live or Countdown or whatever it is. But apparently, from his history, he did what he was expected to do? Well you didn't pay much attention then. However, Sammy doesn't have a history of race baiting and he's not an influential politico with millions of brainwashed listeners. I paid little to no attention. Stuff like this I usually here about on the BBS. I try not to come into this forum. So if it wasn't anywhere else on the BBS, I didn't hear about. I'd like to say that there weren't any 4 page threads specifically on it, though, but I'd be making it up cause I don't know. So how many times must someone be racially offensive to get your stamp of approval for being a racist? He's on a sports show and he's already bringing up race to denigrate a player. How often has Howie Long or Jim Nantz or whoever the heck talked about race in the evaluation of a player? Oh... never? Rush did it because that's what he does. I don't need to look too far to understand that. I don't listen to Rush and never have. If A+B makes him a racist, then it so be it. But I don't think event A on its own does. HEnce my argument. People like me (who don't know or care about Rush generally) just don't from one statement. I believe some people perceive black quarterbacks differently because currently there aren't as many black drop back quarterbacks as white drop back quarterbacks. I think I perceive Warren Moon and Michael Vick differently because well they are different, same thing with Brett Favre and Peyton Manning... they're different type players. There are some black QB's and white ones for that matter in the league who are hyped and continue to get opportunities because of their athletic ability, not because they're a certain color. For example, Kordell Stewart and Jake Plummer are essentially the same guy. They both aren't very good but they keep getting chances because of their athleticism not because of their skin color. You say McNabb is an average thrower? McNabb's career QB rating is 77. Drew Bledsoe's career QB rating is 77.3. Do you contend that mister franchise quarterback, Drew Bledsoe is an average thrower? Maybe your perception of white quarterbacks leads you to believe they're better passers than they really are and your perception of black quarterbacks as "athletes" leads you to believe they're lesser passers than they really are. Maybe we should just drop the race based perceptions and deal with reality. I agree that the line is a thin one, but, as an example, I feel Kordell Stewart has recieved much more positive hype over the years than Jake Plummer. And I feel that quarterback rating aside, McNabb is not your greatest dropback passer. My perception of this is from spending a few years in Philly (with Philly fan). I feel it is closer to reality than saying McNabb is an excellent dropback passer. What?!! I factually pointed out he led the worst offense in the league, on one of the worst teams in the league, had much fewer yards rushing than McNabb, and a much lower average yards per carry and that makes me racist? Hehe... that's funny. But Limbaugh may have been just factually pointing something out as well and you called him a racist. You're basing your opinion on his past. I'm saying, not knowing his past, and not hearing if he had any facts to support his claim, calling him a racist from his statement alone makes no sense. No I feel Steve Young and John Elway were far more often compared to Randall Cunningham than Warren Moon, excepting the fact that Moon and Randall may have been compared as being two of the few black quarterbacks in the league. Doug Williams has a special spot because of what he accomplished. I disagree about Warren Moon. But what did Doug Williams accomplish that other Superbowl winning quarterbacks didn't? Nothing, except that he was black, which is all I'm trying to say - race does play a part.
Originally posted by giddyup Can you hear me making the sound of a chicken? I knew you couldn't substantiate "The Racist History of Rush." Fortunately I'm no longer 12 years old so the na nee na nee boo boo techniques of debate no longer have much of an effect on me. Maybe someone else will come along and be baited to engage you on that topic. What "condemnation" did Sosa face? He is still a much-beloved Cubs star finishing up a fairy tale season. Don't be making up stuff to try to buttress your allegations. Are you saying that Sosa should be allowed to cheat because he is Latino? You're apparently fairly ignorant about the reaction to Sosa's comments. I'm saying you openly defend a white conservative's race baiting but don't do likewise for minorities. Anything wrong with common-sense observation. Isn't it a pretty recognizable fact that in natural population distributions, darker skinned people tend to live closer to the equator. There's Charles Darwin at it again. When it rains I get wet is a common sense observation. Saying that black and latin players play better in the heat than white players isn't common sense. If it were common sense then everyone would have agreed. You apparently don't understand the concept of common sense. Okay, good, now I can let Howard off the hook. Jimmy the Greek made a comment about hamstrings, didn't he? I'll bet that science can back it up. Anybody know? No, Jimmy said blacks are better athletes because they're bred that way. A racially charged comment that attempts to diminish the hard work, commitment, and sacrifice that black athletes must put forth to reach the heights of their professions. It's a frequent tactic used to diminish the significance of minority achievement kind of like Rush and his the media is desirous to have a black quarterback succeed bull. Black quarterbacks therefore don't do well because they work hard, are committed, and sacrifice to excel but rather because the great charitable masses in the media want them to do well. The insulting nature of that type of "opinion" is apparently but not surprisingly completely lost on you.
I may as well ask "What is political correctness?" Asking people to not call you n****r? As for white, conservative "victimization" it is exactly the attitude you exude with the taxation comment. White guys aren't the only "victims" of "over-taxation" in this country. (Note this isn't an attack on all ideological positions under the umbrella of conservatism--or an endorsement of liberalism, but an attack the brand of victimization espoused by Limbaugh.) My problem with Limbaugh's comments, his methods and his ideology (and I am not talking conservatism vs liberalism). Limbaugh in particular perpetuates the idea that success by black people means the robbing of an opportunity for a better qualified White person. I think that entitlement programs are based too much on the politics of victimization. Guys such as Jackson and Sharpton (rightly or wrongly) derive their power from group identity based on victimization. Likewise, Limbaugh's power is the backlash/counter-point to liberal victimization. Limbaugh tells us that white, conservatives in this country are "victims" besieged by a "liberal media," racial preferences, political correctness and taxation forcing white guys to pay for entitlement programs. So, in his world, McNabb gets all this hype/glory/money because he is black while the better skilled, white quarterback sits in relative anonymity. Like Sharpton, Limbaugh simply pits people against one another.
Originally posted by JayZ750 I agree that the line is a thin one, but, as an example, I feel Kordell Stewart has recieved much more positive hype over the years than Jake Plummer. And I feel that quarterback rating aside, McNabb is not your greatest dropback passer. My perception of this is from spending a few years in Philly (with Philly fan). I feel it is closer to reality than saying McNabb is an excellent dropback passer. But do you feel Stewart received more hype than Plummer because Stewart is black? Or could it be because Stewart plays in a hardcore football town in Pittsburgh, Stewart had his "slash" phase which was quite unique in the league, and Stewart's teams were just a lot better than Plummer's teams. Maybe any additional hype is due to those factors and not simply race, that's what I would present anyway. I don't think anyone is saying McNabb is a great drop back passer but the question is whether or not he's overhyped because he's black. I showed you how a hyped white drop back passer is perceived by the majority probably to be a better thrower than McNabb even if the numbers don't bear it out. I don't watch McNabb play on a weekly basis so I have no idea how great or terrible he is, the important question which is what's started this whole mess in the first place was a comment on him being hyped because he's black not that he's simply an overrated qb. But Limbaugh may have been just factually pointing something out as well and you called him a racist. You're basing your opinion on his past. I'm saying, not knowing his past, and not hearing if he had any facts to support his claim, calling him a racist from his statement alone makes no sense. It wasn't a factual observation. Limbaugh's whole career is based on subjective observation and spin. This is no different. I disagree about Warren Moon. But what did Doug Williams accomplish that other Superbowl winning quarterbacks didn't? Nothing, except that he was black, which is all I'm trying to say - race does play a part. He overcame the widely held stigma that black quarterbacks could not lead and win. No white quarterbacks had to overcome that stigma based on their skin color. White quarterbacks didn't go undrafted and get moved to cornerback or receiver because they were white. You can't have a league historically make race an issue with discrimination, then have a black quarterback succeeding in overcoming that, and then just blindly ask what did he accomplish that other quarterbacks didn't.
I don't think you can really make the comparison to Sharpton and Jackson for two reasons. One, race is not one of Rush's biggest issues. I've listened to his show many times, and it isn't something he dwells on, unlike the two black leaders, whose whole agenda is centered around race. I'm having trouble thinking of a show where he even talked about race. The one thing I remember was a Hispanic caller talking about how he succeeded in creating his own business or something, and I think the point was affirmative action wasn't necessary. Secondly, IMO, your characterization of Rush as perpetuating victimization among whites is too harsh. I would say he is exposing the negatives of affirmative action and political correctness. Where do you draw the line? I don't know, and I agree Rush was sort of playing that victimization card on ESPN, but it isn't something he does with any regularity. He just wanted to stir something up, and it worked too well. I find some of the reactions a little extreme. Some of these people don't hesitate to bash poor performing athletes to the fullest extent, and to ridicule and belittle them, but when Rush threatens to cross the line on race, all of a sudden everyone becomes extremely sensitive.
Originally posted by giddyup How are we to deal with your unsubstantiated major claims? Only thing to do is dismiss them completely. You make such broad claims and can, in no way, back them up. This unsubstantiated article was written three years ago. How prophetic. If you'd like me now to substantiate why the sun is hot, make sure and let me know before you put your head back in the sand. http://www.fair.org/articles/limbaugh-color.html June 7, 2000 Limbaugh: A Color Man Who Has A Problem With Color? by Jeff Cohen and Steve Rendall Talk radio host Rush Limbaugh may be returning to television. He recently auditioned for a job as color commentator on ABC's "Monday Night Football." The tryout followed weeks of self-promotion by the self-styled "truth detector" to the millions who listen daily to his syndicated radio show on some 600 stations. Limbaugh's audition is stirring controversy. Sports columnist Thomas Boswell quipped that if Limbaugh joins "Monday Night Football" then baseball's game of the week broadcasters might "team up with John Rocker." Veteran sports writer Michael Wilbon, who is black, indicated a boycott might result: "If Rush Limbaugh is put in that booth, I will NOT listen to the broadcast," he wrote in a Washington Post chat session. "His views on people like me are well documented and I would find it insulting and hypocritical to watch him…There are tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands who feel the same way I do." If ABC hires Limbaugh, it's not clear a boycott will materialize. What is clear is that his expressed views on racial matters -- from the spiteful to the sophomoric -- would make him an odd color commentator. Indeed, CBS Sports dismissed Jimmy the Greek Snyder for ignorant racial remarks, less derisive than some of Limbaugh's. As a young broadcaster in the 1970s, Limbaugh once told a black caller: "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back." A decade ago, after becoming nationally syndicated, he mused on the air: "Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?" In 1992, on his now-defunct TV show, Limbaugh expressed his ire when Spike Lee urged that black schoolchildren get off from school to see his film Malcolm X: "Spike, if you're going to do that, let's complete the education experience. You should tell them that they should loot the theater, and then blow it up on their way out." In a similar vein, here is Limbaugh's mocking take on the NAACP, a group with a ninety-year commitment to nonviolence: "The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies." When Carol Moseley-Braun (D-IL) was in the U.S. Senate, the first black woman ever elected to that body, Limbaugh would play the "Movin' On Up" theme song from TV's "Jeffersons" when he mentioned her. Limbaugh sometimes still uses mock dialect -- substituting "ax" for "ask"-- when discussing black leaders. Such quotes and antics -- many compiled by Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR) for our 1995 book -- offer a whiff of Limbaugh's racial sensibility. So does his claim that racism in America "is fueled primarily by the rantings and ravings" of people like Jesse Jackson. Or his ugly reference two years ago to the father of Madonna's first child, a Latino, as "a gang-member type guy" -- an individual with no gang background. In 1994, Limbaugh mocked St. Louis for building a rail line to East St. Louis "where nobody goes." East St. Louis is home to roughly 40,000 residents -- 98 percent of whom are African-Americans. One of its 40,000 "nobodies" is star NFL linebacker Bryan Cox. Once, in response to a caller arguing that black people need to be heard, Limbaugh responded: "They are 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?" That's not an unusual response for a talk radio host playing to an audience of "angry white males." It may not play so well among National Football League players, 70 percent of whom are African American. Compared to some talk radio hosts, racism is not central to Rush Limbaugh's shtick. But there has been a pattern of commentary indicating his willingness to exploit prejudice against blacks to further his on-air arguments. ABC has the right to hire Limbaugh, even at the risk of alienating members of its audience. ("Monday Night Football" is the second-most watched TV show in black households). Thrust into the world of pro football where Limbaugh himself would be something of a racial minority, is it possible that he'd rise above his history of racial bigotry and insensitivity? Not likely. When all is said and done, the athletes are the key players on "Monday Night Football." It would be great to know how they'd feel about a color man who seems to have trouble with people of color. Did Sosa lose his job? What ongoing vile has been heaped at Sosa? I don't know what the hell reaction you are talking about but I don't know anyone who reacted in the kind of way you are intimating. Care to be clearer? Oh, that's right... that's your secret... be vague and condemnational. You need me to prove to you that there was controversy and scorn behind Sosa, Pedro Martinez, and Jose Canseco claiming there was a bigger spotlight on the situation because of Sosa's race? Frankly anyone who follows baseball at all should recall it. Do you intetionally play dumb to waste my time proving common knowledge to you? It sure looks that way. See the thread about Political Correctness. You'll find it instructional about why people's expression is often curtailed. Not everyone agrees on just about anything. So you don't agree that rain makes you wet. Alrighty... BS. How rare is it to have someone waste a ton of God-given talent. Those who make it harness their God-given talent with hard work and dedication to detail-- whatever their race, whatever their sport. Media don't make out depth charts. They only talk about them. Please don't exagerate the issue. NEXT TIME COME AT ME WITH SOME OF YOUR GOOD STUFF. Next time I'm just going to ignore you. You're simply a gleeful apologist for conservative stupidity and race baiting and I'm just not going to waste my time with it any longer.
Your defenses of Rush and Rush's history of inflammatory/derogatory commentary are at odds. Spin it however you want, but Limbaugh likes to paint himself as the maverick conservative fighting for use good folks in liberal media land. That is when he isn't advising folks to "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back." You can say Rush is just pointing out contradictions or that race isn't his central thesis, but that doesn't address the issues regarding victimization. I am familiar with Rush playing the victim, where, again, the victims are the subjects of the agency of the "liberal media," racial preferences, over-taxation, etc. Playing the victim isn't restricted to playing the race card. It entails playing the "liberal media" card when people take offense to your commentary or the "racial preferences" card at a bake sale. Above all else, it means inflamming divisions, overstating the assumption of burden and preying on people's fears and axieties about the distribution of power in society.
You know that isn't what I mean. But if you are a big fan of his I don't expect you to even try to understand what I mean. But anyway, to make it really simple: I mean that he is racist, sexist, inflammatory, manipulative, egomaniacal and divisive. For the record, I dislike partisan politics and the people who play them. Partisan politics glosses over real contradictions in society and turns the process of government into a zero sum game of team-based, narrow-minded, political tit for tat.
I agree with the inflammatory, manipulative, egomanical and divisive, not the sexist or racist. I like him but he isn't on my list of commentators I admire the most. I like how he doesn't really take his show too seriously, Al Franken or Bill Maher are probably his mirror image for Democrats. Hey, we're all partisan. I'd rather know the truth about someone's motives, and know where they are coming from, than listen to someone like Bill O'Reilly or Macbeth who pretend to be independent and completely objective, and who come to the most bizarre conclusions.
So what makes Doug Williams different was his skin color. I just think when you're talking about "hype", skin color plays a role. There are other factors, but I think it's one of them.
What makes Doug Williams different is all the bulls**t he had to go through just to play QB in the NFl, because of his race. And the linked NFL article doesn't even begin to account his experiences.
I'd rather know the truth about a guy's position myself. While I don't care for or like Rush Limbaugh, I maintain a modicum of repect for him just for 'being real' about his politics. It beats hiding behind catch phrases rhetoric. But I don't beleive we are all partisan. I do believe that our electoral system prettey much requires us to be.
Good heavens, Williams entered pro football almost 25 years ago. How does his story begin to compare with McNabb's? Did the Bucs try to move him to WR or DB? He struggled on a very bad team for way too many years. That was his main problem. I'm sure he faced personal critics, but he was handed the reins of that team early on. It's not like he wasn't given an opportunity. <b>Terry Bradshaw</b> was labeled too dumb by many to make it as an NFL QB. The Steelers saw things differently and were rewarded by 4 Super Bowl victories. <b>Kurt Warner</b> went through some BS to play QB in the NFL too. Maybe this kid <b>Tommy Chang</b> from Hawaii will be the first Asian-American to play QB in the NFL. <b>Jack Thompson</b> was Samoan and a top draft choice who never panned out. Too bad <b>Sonny Sixkiller</b> was barely 6 feet tall; he was one of my idols as a kid. Man, oh man, does anybody remember that Mexican-American who played quarterback for SMU back in the 60's-- <b>Inez Perez</b>, I think? He was so cool. I think he was only 5' 4" or thereaouts. Oh, that's right, as a white kid I couldn't have Native American or Mexian-American sports idols. Sorry <b>Jim Thorpe</b>... you the Olympian not the black pro golfer.
<b>timing</b>: So Rush Limbaugh is the Chris Rock of talk radio... and that's an exageration. Some of that is offensive but much more of what Chris Rock says is offensive. Have you ever seen Eddie Murphy imitate white people talking? Rush is an entertainer. He is a low-grade comedian, too. If that's all they have after his being on the air almost daily for over 30 years, well .....
First you wanted me to substantiate that he was a racist and now that I have you want to play him off as a freakin comedian. Apparently there is nothing you won't stoop to in order to defend the bigotry of white conservatives. Spin it giddy, spin it!! How surprising...
Let me get you on record on this: are you denying that Limbaugh is an entertainer who laces his commentary with comedy, sarcasm, and impersonation? Yes or No, please. You give a dozen or so examples drawn from 30 years of daily radio commentary. I've <b>heard</b> many of those. You are only proving that you know nothing about the Rush Limbaugh industry...
