In counter, Wilt was not "universally" regarded as the GOAT pre-Jordan. I can't say that one player was, but between Wilt, Russell, Kareem, that was up for debate. Then, along came Magic and Bird to maybe possibly enter the conversation, then Jordan trumped all. On the second point, what I meant was, those were the numbers Kobe averaged during those 3 title years. Basically, even if you say Kobe was 2nd fiddle to Shaq all those years, it was a very close second. They needed each other.
No, it really wasn't. History is being rewritten now that Kobe is the better player than Shaq, but at the time, it wasn't close. Kobe put up some good numbers in the last two runs, but Shaq was always the focus of the defense, the guy getting doubled and tripled while Kobe and others were free to roam. It was as clear cut of a #1 option as there has ever been.
if people wanna define "clutch" as game winners, it's kobe. and apparently most people are defining it that way.
Reasons why I hate Kobe: 1. Horrible teammate... Personally I would hate to be on Kobe's team cause I know if I take even a single bad shot I'm gonna hear about it during the timeout while he can jack up any ugly shot he wants. 2. There's no way I'm gonna get set up by him since he can only create for himself. 3. He's gay... Literally. Have you seen those model pics? 4. Last but not least here's another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqcgy6xLrEM Vintage Kobe!!
Ok, I admit that Shaq was the better of the two at that point, but Kobe was more than just Robin to Shaq's batman. You don't put up 25/6/5 (during the 3peat) just because Shaq is getting double teamed. He also averaged 28/6.5/5.5 during the 2nd and 3rd titles. The Lakers didn't start winning with Shaq and Kobe until both players learned to work together, and when Kobe simply developed. During Kobe's first 3 years, Shaq was still averaging 27/12 and 2.5 blocks per game and had been in the league 7 seasons before they won a title. It wasn't until Kobe's 4th season, when he really started to come into his own, that the Lakers won a title.
Phil Jackson helped too. Look, no one is denying that Kobe is a great player. It's no shame to be Robin to the MDE. Kobe & Pippen both had integral roles in championships, and they should be recognized in history as such.
Ok, I can accept that. I guess my initial point was that Kobe was been a winner as the best player on the team (back-to-back currently) and as a very good 2nd best player on the 3-peat Lakers. Lebron, despite any shortcomings with teammates, coaches, whatever, has yet to win. And until he does that, despite any stats, he cannot enter the conversation.
I agree that there is a lot of revisionist history going on lately. Back when the Lakers were winning those titles, there was a lot of talk about whether the Lakers would still be winning with a number of other wing players subbed in Kobe's place (e.g., Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, T-Mac, etc.), but there was never any talk about if Kobe could win those titles with another big, not even Tim Duncan. That's because Shaq was clearly the man, the only great big man in the league, and Kobe was just one of half a dozen or so talented young wings.
This whole thread is based on an article which compares Lebron and Kobe in terms of 82Games.com's clutch minutes statistics. Those statistics are defined as the last 5 minutes of the game with one team leading by 5 or less. That is different than game winning shots. Both require "clutchness" but they are different. Carl Landy is a great example. He was super clutch in the last 5 minutes but he hit very few game winners. In the best of worlds a team has someone to provide both but they aren't neccessarily the same player. Unless you perform in the last 5 minutes then you don't get the chance for the buzzer beater and conversely if you can't finish the close game then the last 5 minutes don't matter. Another great example is Ben Gordon. He's historically good in terms of game winners but he was miserable last season in the last 5 minutes (under 30%). Despite that if Detroit needs a last shot it will most likely be Ben Gordon taking it.
So you're rewarding Kobe for having a great team and great teammates but Lebron doesn't even get into the conversation because he didn't say he'll go to Italy unless he gets traded to the Lakers on draft day? Imagine for a second Lebron and Kobe switched ages and LBJ was the one whom West traded for to pair with Shaq. Would LBJ have as many rings/awards as Kobe does now? Statistics say LBJ would have done even better, not only is he a better shooter and all around performer now than Kobe at his prime, apparently he's even more clutch. Yes Kobe hit more game winners, but if LBJ had been the one playing with Gasol, Artest, Fisher et al it would have probably been a blow out in the first place. The one time Kobe had crap teammates he only managed 2nd round against PHX before quitting on his team. LBJ took his crap team to the NBA finals.
he went toe to toe with orlando and boston. and singlehandedly beat a tough pistons team in 07. i'm sure he would at least get past the first round if he brought that same cavs team to the west.
Also very different defnitions of "crap". Lamar Odom all by himself has more talent than Varejao, Booby Gibson and Mo Williams combined.
Hmmm ... usually when I read something very surprising (e.g. Lakers have lost more close games than they've won the last couple years with Kobe on the floor), that makes me want to continue reading, not stop reading.
