just curious, was shaq's performance in the finals equal that of a dominating center? there were games were had had the same output as dampier.. it looks like miami basically won primarily because of perimeter shooting and slashing to the basket.. not as much points from the post.. and teams without significant post presence - mavs, suns, and cavs went deep into the playoffs even the finals so its just a matter of time..
Don't forget that zone defenses weren't allowed in Hakeem's days. Its harder to be a big man today. Yao gets double teamed BEFORE he even touches to ball ...that was called illegal D in Dream's day. Also, Hakeem had the benefit of playing in America in college so he was used to the language, culture, speed, etc. Yao had a few more challenges to face than Hakeem. So to say Hakeem accomplished more by his 5th year isn't a fair comparison. Championships after 5 years? Dream = 0, Yao = 0. That will be the final word after their careers are over.
...except that dream and sampson led the rox to the finals. yao and t-mac couldn't get out of the first round. significant difference. also lets not forget dream didn't grow up playing basketball like yao did. so how did yao have that many more challenges?
Was the zone defense allowed at that time? I don't think you can double or even tripple a player that hard back then. When you compare the stats from different era, you have to take into account the rule changes. I don't think Yao will ever be as good as Hakeem defensively. Offensively if Yao fulfill all the potential it would be a draw. Overall IMO Yao has no chance to surpass Hakeem on the all time great list. Hope he will prove me wrong though.
Dismissing the idea of dominant big man using the "New NBA" argument is a load of crap. Teams are learning to win w/out big men (due to the lack of quality bigs out there) but a team with a top notch center will always be a contender. Dude, Shaq is still Shaq. He still REQUIRES double/triple teams when he gets the ball down low. Shaq's mere presense makes Wade's life 10x easier. Do you beleive Miami would have won w/out Shaq? Wade was great but if you want to see the outcome of this series w/out Shaq then look no further than Cleveland vs. Detroit. LeBron was JUST as good, IMO, as Wade but LeBron couldn't do it alone. But why is Dallas winning now and not previously? Lets see, they added more inside presense and started playing better defense. Hmmm...where have we seen that before? If Yao finally turns the corner into a "dominant" player, I'll take my chances against of these "New NBA" teams. So far, Yao hasn't consistently played at an MVP level ...but if he does then the Suns can kiss our arses.
Huh? The point of my comment was in response to Nix101 saying that Hakeem is better because he played in an era of more competition. I'm simply pointing out the Yao has it a little more difficult now because he gets sandwhiched between two defenders before he ever receives the ball. Hakeem didn't have to contend with that. When Hakeem entered the NBA, he was NBA ready. When Yao entered, he wasn't. Comparing their childhood is mostly irrelevant to the challenged each faced in their first NBA game respectively. When their careers are over, hopefully Yao will have made his mark and that they'll ultimately be judged by # of championships.
Why? because you have asked this questrion: And also because I see the similarity between the 2nd team (Lebron's team) and the 2003 Orlando Magic. I have no doubt the 2003 Tmac is much better than Lebron. So I wonder why you think the 2nd team would have done relatively better than the 1st team. And I am still waiting for an answer. If you don't agree with who's better, just say it. Don't ask me why Tmac is in the conversation. Have you mentioned Tmac in this thread too? Did you ask yourself why Tmac is in your conversation?
A) The last Bulls title was in 1998, so how is that the "new NBA"? B) The Bulls had the best SG and SF in the game when they were winning titles. Additionally, their SG and SF were the best defenders in the game at their position. Let me know when a combo like that arises again. If you put Kobe and a healthy T-Mac on the same team and add a All-Star caliber PF (which the Bulls always had when they won) then I think they will win a title too. C) The Bulls had MJ, which we already stated was the X-factor. No, I don't think Bron will be as good as Mike (he doesn't play defense). So to clarify, when a guard led team that doesn't have Jordan on it wins the title without some post presence, then I will believe in the "new NBA". Every champ since Jordan has had a big time post presence (Shaq, Duncan and the Wallaces). Wade carried the Heat to the trophy, but review the tape and count how many times he was doubled, compared to Shaq.
so lets say tmac is better.. it still doesn't prove that if lebron coulnd't have won more games if he was in the lineup instead of yao..
great players win championships, there are plenty of good centers that don't. and as far as last time a team with a great center didn't win, how about detroit, just two season ago. at least, he wasn't the main cog. yes shaq and duncan have a lot of titles since the jordan days, but those guys were also the best players in the league. so the question is, who has a chance to become the best player, yao or lebron? not yao is a center so I take yao.
And I am assuming that Yao will be great. I'm assuming he continues to play like he did after his foot surgery, when he was unstoppable. Detroit didn't have a center but they had arguably the best defensive frontcourt in the league, from SF - C. Rasheed Wallace could also get his shot whenener he wants. Yao and Lebron are both great. It's just usually easier to build a team around a big than a small, especially when the small has NO impact defensively.
Well put. Knowing what we know right now, Yao demonstrated tremendous growth after his toe surgery. I'm not making the trade ...because he is a center.
sorry i should have quoted 1 part. i was emphasizing that it wasn't as simple as just looking at 0 titles. hakeem had much more playoff success than yao had. i don't know how many years you want to handicap yao but i think the 3rd year in the league is a decent time to start looking for success. he was "nba ready" because he was so dominant athletically, not because his game was so polished. yes dream picked up the game very quickly but he was still very raw coming out because he had not played a lot of ball growing up. i don't know how you can just deny all the years yao spent growing up playing basketball even if it wasn't against high level competition. he had great footwork coming in and a great shot coming in. further yao had a great court awareness coming into the nba. yes he needed practice against higher level competition, but he grew up with solid fundamentals and knowledge of the game unlike dream. lastly, i don't even really know why i am arguing except just for the sake of arguing. very bored at work today
That's my point. Lebron could have done better or he could have done much worse. That's what I was trying to say when I answered your question last night because you seemed to imply that Lebron's team would have done relatively better. So you agree with me that you will never know, right?
I think after Yao's career is over, he has the potential to be mentioned in the same breath as Hakeem. If Yao reaches that point, they will probably be judged by the # of titles ...like everybody else. That's all I meant by that. ...and he played American style ball before he entered the league ...and he could speak English ...and he was comfortable eating American foods ...and he was comfortable doing American things blah blah blah. Yes Yao had more BB experience but that's about the extent of it. So give 1 point to Yao for experience and give Dream 5 points for the reasons listed above. Advantage Dream.
let's see what was the record the cavs 04-05.. compared to rox record last year with yao ming playing but not tmac..
Lebron and Tmac are both wing players and play the same position. And like I have said three times already, I see the similarity between Lebron's team which you have proposed and the 2003 orlando Magic. So I used Tmac's 2003 Orlando Magic as a reference for comparison purpose. And I absolutely believe the 2003 Tmac is much better than Lebron. What do you not agree with me? Why would you think Lebron's team would have done relatively better? Or you simply do not know?
so since orlando 03 went to the playoffs.. then a lebron team will probably go the the playoffs as well.. if not barely.. why cant you answer my other question? what was the rockets record with yao ming playing and no tmac?
