I respectfully disagree. I think this "will to win" is a bunch of bullcrap. David Carr wants to win, and even "wills" it so, as much as anyone. And, he's better than Rex Grossman. While David Carr has plenty of "will to win", he doesn't have skill to win (IMO). And, Rex Grossman hasn't "taken his team to the big stage", his defense and running game have. If you don't like folks saying "DC didn't lose the game for us," then don't listen too closely to what guys have said about Chicago's playoffs run--that's about all they've been saying about Grossman.
How many Super Bowls have been won by quarterbacks who minimized mistakes rather than those who "made plays?" Ben Rothelsberger, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, Ken Stabler, Len Dawson, Bob Griese and Bart Starr were championship quarterbacks who worked with under this framework. Of course, they all made enough plays to win, but they were more game managers than game breakers in the Joe Montana, or John Elway sense. I know the game has changed, but even the recent past suggests that emphasizing game managers at quarterback is an effective strategy. Some of the best vertical passers in league history like Dan Fouts and Dan Marino could never get over the hump. As many smart people have said in this thread, there is no magic formula to win a Super Bowl, but the outright scorn that some people have for this concept is pretty silly given the history of the league. David Carr could end up being another Jim Plunkett, a guy who got beat up and underachieved and later emerged to become a good quarterback, or could flame out like most Houston fans expect. Who knows? While I am leaning towards letting him figure his quarterbacking life out elsewhere, I can't see how Jake Plummer is going to be that helpful to the team given the cost.
Funny, if you ask teammates of Roger Staubach, Joe Montana or John Elway, they would say something about the ability in one way shape or form that they could impose their will and elevate their teammates play to yield a victory even under the most dire of circumstances. Grossman's play DID make a difference with his play in several instances (I believe ESPN said 10 games this season). Carr made a difference in exactly ZERO games this year. Grossman's stats better than Carr and Grossman's winning percentage is better than Carr's. Granted Bears D much better than ours and their OL definitely much better than ours but Grossman has had to make plays from time to time and he has made plays. When Carr is out on the field, he doesnt inspire confidence or leadership on the field. There is no fear from the opponent because they know what Carr will resort to doing the same DAMN thing he's been doing the past few years! Hey Leinart even on the Cards, has demonstrated at least SOME leadership and ability and their OL is supposedly as bad or worse than ours. So based on that, Carr is NOT better than Grossman. Carr=ZERO leadership. Sorry it is what it is ... our Carr's future here is wrecked. He deserves better and needs to be given a place where he can excel and I dont think that will ever happen here.
...and they did it with their hall of fame skill. It's ridiculous to think that any athlete has less desire to win than another. It's not about "will" to win, it's about "skill" to win. And, leadership is one of those skills. Hence, I agree with you about leadership. There's certainly room for argument. Grossman, from what I've read and heard, is about as zero as there is. Just like Dave. I don't disagree. My take wasn't defending Carr; it was disagreeing with this "will to win" bullcrap. Again, we agree.
...? if carr is good enough to "excel" but has never been given a "place" to do it here in houston....... why would you get rid of him? i'm not arguing you should or shouldn't. your premise, however, would suggest the proper course of action would be to keep carr and build one of those "places" for him where he can "excel," as opposed to dumping him, finding a replacement, hoping the replacement can excel and STILL needing to build a place for that to happen.
There is the possibility that Carr could excel with the Texans. But that is just it, a possibility. But there is also the team dynamic to factor in , and it has become abundantly clear that from the front office to the coaching staff to the players, the "team" has lost confidence in David's ability to make plays. You can dispute anything you would like, and you may have some valid points, but the writing is on the wall.
Who knows? But if everyone is reasonably certain he can't excel here, why continue to keep in a place where he's "certain" (disclaimer below) not to succeed? Do him a favor, and do the Texans a favor. But I don't pretend to know dogmatically that David Carr can or can't excel anywhere--at least I shouldn't. It seems pretty certain that he won't be able to here, and I've said as much--but I've been wrong a million times about football.
but this is a specific premise offered by HM4L that presupposes carr can "excel" eslewhere, given the right "place." i don't know if he or can't, either. but if you assume he can.... why would you deal him?
Because this isn't the place. It doesn't seem all that illogical to me, Ric. There are a lot of factors that make football franchises different. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to think that perhaps a QB can do much better in another clubhouse--especially one without the history of failure he's accumulated here. If you dismiss that point of view, fine.
C'mon Ric, what I'm saying is Carr due to inadequate tuteledge and development as well as, a piss poor job building around him SERIOUSLY stunted his development. Yes, he has had multiple coordinators and coaches to have to adapt to. All these things being said, the absolute BEST case scenario I see is Carr having to battle very hard for playing time with at least two other viable options next year in training camp. What more does Kuby and the coaching staff do to convince y'all Carr is not and cannot get it done? He benched him, he drew a gameplan eliminating the passing game so the Texans could actually win a game and he left Carr out there in the NE game to try and work out his problems during the game. Carr REGRESSED as that game went along. His worst game EVER! Kuby left him out there also to indelibly leave it in McNair's head that this guy CANT lead our franchise to the playoffs IMHO. Remember the running game won the last two games NOT Carr. I'm not trying to beat the man down, I'm just telling it like it is. So, if we build the OL and we have AP in the backfield and solidify the defense, can Carr lead this team to the playoffs? That's the bottom line question that has to be asked. My answer is no. So IMHO, Plummer albeit older DOES have some game left and coupled with his chemistry already with Kuby in Denver (where he had his greatest success in those 3 years under Kuby for his entire career), say what you will but this would not be a bad stop gap move for a few years while Kuby has the opportunity to groom a franchise QB and press into the starting lineup in 1-2 years. Look at the stats, Ric. They don't lie! Do you disagree? Lastly, it's an image thing ... Carr sadly is/has been the "whipping boy", the poster child if you will for Uncle Charley's screwups. The fans already are unhappy about VY. Potentially this would rub salt into the wound for the Texan fans if Carr comes back for another year and again falls on his collective face. What message would this send to Dunta? AJ? How much longer are they going to stay at a franchise willingly to just LOSE? There is alot riding on this decision DON'T doubt that for a minute. We are talking about the direction this franchise is going to take that will affect us for the next few years at least. Last question, can Carr lead this team? Does he have the confidence and belief in his own ability to turn this franchise around? Will his teammates continue to stand behind him or go contrary (and create controversy and dissension) to the company lined response?
Ok Ric, lets play your devil's advocate POV. You are coach Kuby. It's March, 2007. The official start of your free agent signing season. You have a QB that has some talent but has many faults and bad habits accumulated from college and from the first couple years in the NFL. You personally vouched (supposedly) that you could turn him around but sadly as the season went along he did NOT progress, he REGRESSED! He cost you games you could have won and he did NOT singlehandedly win you one game. The fans for your franchise are already pissed because you did not go with the future, VY. By early indications, ALREADY VY is better (in his FIRST season in the NFL!) than Carr (in his fifth year in the NFL) in the account of winning and losing. So how do you turn around this franchise with DC at the helm? Can you afford to risk him falling on his face again in the glare of abject disgust from the fans here? What scenario here in a perfect world guarantees DC to be a success in H-Town? How many 'buddies' will DC have in his corner here to start this season. Do you still want David Carr to be the face of this franchise? So what do you do, hotshot? What do you do? Clock is ticking ...
