really? i'm not talking about 20 years...or 30...or 40. hell, the Yanks dominated baseball for decades before i was born. they have 40 something World Series appearances, the majority of which came before I was born. 10 years is a sizeable enough sample size to have a discussion about. it's far more relevant to the discussion in this thread, about how this example of Adrian Gonzalez is indicative of how, as you say, "How can lower payroll teams compete with these guys, this is why i don't watch baseball." -- I've pointed out to you that lower payroll teams have MORE than held their own for a decade now. You can argue against that all you want...and stop watching baseball...that's fine. But it doesn't change the fact that lower payroll teams beat these guys MORE OFTEN THAN NOT. Including a team in this division that's done it with a payroll SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than your Jays.
There arn't too many teams out there that spend as much as the Sox and Yanks, these two spend 160M and 206M respectively. The playoff structure makes sure that only very talented teams make it to the playoffs. So yes they arn't going to win it every year. To keep this relevant to what I stated, lets just stick to the AL East. How many times in the last 10 years have the these two specific teams made the playoffs compared to the 5 teams in that division?? Enough said.
you can say the same thing about the Cardinals in the NL Central, and the payroll disparity isn't the issue there. again...for the 3rd time...i'm not suggesting i'm opposed to a salary cap or something like that. no problem with that at all. but to suggest that teams with lower payrolls can't compete...which you did in the original post i responded to...is to ignore the last decade of baseball. it's just not true.
I think the 10 year look at the playoffs is very flukish. Even the best baseball team only wins 65% of the time and I think that's in large part due to depth. A lot of teams can match some front line talent but it's the bullpens, the 3rd and 4th starters, and the backups that give them a season long advantage. In a single series however the match up of styles and personnel probably matter more than a depth mismatch. A better comparison would be regular season records over a 10 year period. It's much harder for a team with a low payroll to have sustained success than to catch lightning in a bottle one year and break through for a championship. The Devil Rays are an anomaly really. They drafted very highly for like five or six years and acquired a ton of young talent in the process. Now that talent is maturing and they're having a lot of success. As you see with Carl Crawford and Scott Kazmir though, the inability to keep their top talent is why they'll eventually be overtaken by the Yankees and Red Sox.
WOW, you come out with the same response AGAIN!? You seem to dismiss anything I state. Lets NOT look at who wins the world series, I think that is not very relevant to what I had stated. WHy don't you just look up which teams in the AL East made the playoffs in the last 10 years, about 80% of the time it was the RED SOX AND YANKEES!!!! If you don't believe me check the standings here in the last 10 years... http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp?ymd=20031003
wait..stop for a second...you think yankee fans, after losing to the Rangers in the playoffs...a team with the 4th lowest payroll in baseball....took solace in their regular season record? i agree with you that baseball is an up for grabs proposition when it gets to the playoffs, more so than any other sport. i love that about it.
I never said they didn't win the AL East. I said you can't paint baseball with a broad brush and simply say, "How can lower payroll teams compete with these guys, this is why i don't watch baseball." Because lower payroll teams do compete quite nicely.
So why is it that the Yanks and Red Sox have made it to the playoffs so many times more often than any other team in the AL East (last 10 years)? Just wondering what advantage you think they have over the other teams in the AL East....better management?
Well Yankee fans are pretty demanding but they're not dumb. They did lose to a low budget Marlins team in 2003 so they know it can happen.
I don't think anybody is saying having a huge payroll is not an advantage for the Yankees/Sox but its not the whole story. Teams have won the world series despite low payroll just see the Giants. Clearly it should be fixed but I'd say theres more parity in the MLB than the NBA where money isnt the issue its how much glamour your city has....
Tell me this though. Which of those teams would you say is a lock to make 3 or 4 MORE World Series over the next 10-15 years?? Even if the Ray, Astros, Rockies, etc are making ONE World Series, the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, etc are in line to make 5 or 6. For every one World Series the Astros make, the big boys make 5. Good GMing can only go so far when there are about 5-6 teams using the other 24 as their personal farm systems. It's a crappy system straight away.
You guys do know that they are talking about letting more teams into the playoffs, right? As a Red Sox fan, I completely agree that the system needs to change but every time that comes up, the players threaten to go on strike, so it is pointless to complain about it because it probably won't change. The Yankees have advantages because of tradition and history and playing in the largest market in the country and their management knows what they're doing (something that pains me to say). The Red Sox also have a large market that they play in but their management are also strong - you have to be if you are competing with the Yankees. I would venture that if you took the 3 division champions and the 3 teams with the next best records (3 wildcards), you would have had 3 maybe even 4 AL east teams in the playoffs. I guess they could move the Rays and Jays to another division - I don't know. The Red Sox won 89 (I believe that was the number) games last season despite a biblical proportion of horrific injuries to key guys like Youkilis (season ending), Pedroia (season ending), Ellsbury (season ending), Martinez, Beckett, Mike Cameron (season ending), etc. Guys like Darnell McDonald, Daniel Nava, Ryan Kalish, Josh Reddick, Bill Hall, a washed up Varitek, Kevin Cash, Felix Doubront, etc. all had to have significant playing time because of these injuries. The fact that the Sox were still as good as they were was not because of their "bottomless" resources, it was because they had good luck and success with these replacements. Ultimately, they weren't good enough to get them in the playoffs (there's a reason why they are replacements to begin with..but) but you have to give Theo, Francona, and the rest of their leadership some respect for winning 89 games in MLB's hardest division with a patchwork team.
Lower payroll teams compete, but I wouldn't say they compete quite nicely. You can point to the Rangers, Rays, and Rockies - but that's from a pool of about 20ish lower/mid payroll teams. Combined, those teams have made the WS less than just the top 2 payroll teams alone. That's a very significant competitive advantage. It's virtually impossible for any team without a top-tier payroll to maintain success for more than about 3-5 years before having to lose a chunk of their talent and rebuild again. In the case of the Rockies, it was 1 year. With Rays, it has been 3 years so far, with a partial dismantling starting up this year. And the Rangers are at 1 year so far.
As for the deal, A-Gone had been a guy that the Sox had been targeting for awhile. They were very close to getting him last season but they did not want to give up Ellsbury and Casey Kelly. There's a part of me that would like to see them try to keep Beltre as he was my favorite player and their MVP last season, yet I know how the Red Sox FO works - they are not big on giving FAs more than 4 years on any deal. That is why V-Mart ultimately wound up with Detroit. Supposedly, Beltre has a 4 year offer with Oakland (which would be a horrible fit for him from an offensive standpoint) but I wouldn't see the Sox trying to go 5 years with him. I think that Beltre will probably wind up with the Angels. If they can sign Jayson Werth and put him in LF, Ellsbury is healthy and back in CF, and you got Youkilis at 3B, with A-Gone, you have a powerful hitting lineup: Ellsbury, CF Pedroia, 2B Youkilis, 3B Gonzalez, 1B Ortiz, DH Werth, LF Drew, RF Salatamacchia, C Scutaro, SS That's a great hitting lineup - better than anything they had last season. Obviously I worry about Ortiz - will he have one more good year left him in or will he continue to decline? Is Salty ready to be an everyday starter? Has Scutaro's shoulder gotten better or is time for Jed Lowrie to be the starter again? And of course, injuries are a factor, especially with J.D. "Nancy" Drew and now Ellsbury and Pedroia. I am hoping that Beckett bounces back and that John Lackey can give us something better than what he did last season. Forget about Dice-K, with Lester, Buchholz, Beckett, and Lackey, the Sox have one of the best rotations around. If they can sign Werth, all that is left is shoring up their bullpen. I would try to trade Papelbon for prospects and have Bard as my closer.
I'll say again..I'm not saying money is NOT an advantage...I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is...the idea that this league belongs entirely to the Yanks and Red Sox...and no one else can compete...is just not true, no matter how many times it gets thrown around.
Yes the Yankees/Red Sox have the ability to outbid and outspend most teams, but thats how baseball is and has always been so deal with it. Its part of the game and what makes it so great. Money can buy talent, but that doesn't mean a team will consistently perform well. A cap on baseball would be silly, the game is fine as is. And i'm not a Red Sox or Yankee fan.
But why are you debating that arument. Red Sox/Yanks just happen to be hyperboles. I blame the system, not the teams. Ugh...don't get me started. A good GM and staff is better than money, and guess what, the Red Sox (and now the Yanks) have both.
Here's another little snapshot of how the baseball system needs a serious overhaul: The Yankees are about to pay roughly $17 million per year for a player that they KNOW isn't even an all-star caliber player (Jeter). But it doesn't matter to them. They could pay him $30 mil and put him in AAA and they wouldn't have to miss a beat. Something has to change.
Yeah, smaller market teams can get lucky with their farm system and player development, and capitalize on that for a couple of years, but then they lose their stars to wealthier teams and have to start over. Of course the print media shills never mention this when they're spouting their talking points in defense of the MLB status quo. The game needs a minimum cap and a maximum cap, but the most powerful owners and agents won't allow it.
Well this sucks, looks like the Rays won't be making the playoffs for a while. **** the Red Sox and the Yankees, they ruin the sport
