jayz750..... i dont see how you can compare vspan to players like kmart, tony parker or steve nash. he's not any of them. most of the people who criticize vspan are criticizing his production so far based against the hype he got when he came in here. you cant say this player did so so vspan can do this too. there are tons of players that came in and stunk up their way out of the NBA. the only reasonable way to judge a player is by the results they get in pt. not by potential, not by comparison. steve novak could be the best shooter in the world but if he cant do it in games, he's worthless.
Except, by all reckonings - JVG and VSpan - it was an attempt to drive a square hole with a round peg. I am amazed at the amount of vitriol expended by so many on one very unknown, untested, unproved bi-legged putative asset.
last year, v-span was in the wrong system, with the wrong coach trying to fit a square peg into a round hole...v-span is a quick, strong guard, that can penetrate and hit the mid range J, and play good 1 on 1 D...JVG wanted an outside spot up shooter that didnt need the ball to be effective. im gonna go ahead and call it...if v-span comes back and gets legitimate playing time, 15-20 minutes a game...a lot of ppl on this board hating on a rookie, that couldnt get comfortable or confident in sporatic trash minutes, will eat crow. v-span>>rafer alston...he's just more talented, period. rafer's slow, cant penetrate AND finish, and his knuckle-ball 3 point shot is spotty at best. but i will admit that he is clutch, and plays with emotion...something u cant say for all the rox starters...
Thanks for that. I guess I was wondering if he would be sacrificing money either way with his decision. Assuming basketball players are somewhat marketable stars in Greece/Europe, he might get some endorsement money too. Either way, I can't blame him if he stays or goes. Ulitmately he gets to play basketball for a living for a good amount of money so he's in a good position. I'd like to see him stick around to see if he could develop into a solid NBA player myself.
This really is quite pointless... We keep rehashing the same things over and over... Yes, Span did nothing to impress anyone this year...But I dont think any of us can come to a conclusion with any degree of certainty regarding his abilities with such limited PT... My endorsement of him comes from 3-4 years of watching him play rather than the greece-us WC game... But I can understand when people that havent been watching him say it was a fluke... As far as his reluctance to come back it has nothing to do with being a prima-donna or expecting PT due to his status in Europe...Watching him for 3-4 yers and hearing him speak and reading his interviews and blogs, I can tell you he is not arrogant at all and is a very hard-worker.... However it comes dowwn to what Jayz750 said: "He sees a team where none of his strengths are utilized and all of his weaknesses are exploited. And these are strengths and weaknesses that everyone knew he had before the season started, yet he was still "promised" a role." Note, by promised a role, we dont mean PT but rather that he was brought over to use all his good qualities as a player. In Span's opinion (and mine from the games I saw) these weren't used.... The Rockets are probably telling him that with the new coach there is space for his qualities in the roster but , isnt that the reason why you pick up a player? To "exploit" what he is good at? Isnt that what was supposed to happen last year? The guy is just scared of not fitting in again and spending another season on the bench....He knows he needs to play well to gain PT and he's probably ready to do that... However if playing well for the rockets coach (whether it be JVG or anyone else) means being good at something he's not good at (cause no player is perfect at everything...cept maybe MJ) than he is not a right fit for the team...Hence he shouldnt stay...If that's not "knowing your limitations" (contrary to people saying he thinks he's better than he is) than , I don't know what is...
Well he shot them in the foot but it merely grazed them. He was downright bad on defense, after many of his proponents here on his BBS fan club hyped him up. People went by him at will. Kyle Korver is not just one play, it shows a pattern of people able to go by him at will - and I remember plenty of people doing it. But that alone doesn't mean he's an NBA player or one worth devoting time and resources too any more than any other second round draft pick who has shown next to nothing. I mean you could design a system that would highlight Thomas Hamilton's capabilities but if you've got better players why would you? Lame JVG smack is oh so boring. It's the players, not the offense Yes but he did them over and over again with little to no corresponding postive plays - again undercutting the silly stereotype that all european players are "smart" and have high "basketball IQ" - again a calling card of his BBS fanclub. If you understand JVG's offensive system so well ... eh forget it. That was in his 9th NBA Game in the first month of his existence - he scored 10 points that night, the next night he put up 20 and the rest was history. Terrible comparison. No. These guys were markedly better than Spanoulis in almost all aspects even early in their careers - and there are stats to prove it (as one would expect, since they aren't crappy second round draft picks) - you appear to the one twisting as you are looking at their playoff stats. Nash played in 8 playoff games his first two years - and about 160 regular season games. He has always been a deadeye three point shooter and was back then - he has been over 40% every single year of his career save one where he hit 37% (season 3). Yawn - yawn - yawn - how many games did you chart? I saw plenty of guys moving without the ball, pick and rolls with Chuck Hayes, Tracy running for the Alley oop, the occasional pick and roll with Yao - Yao setting picks up high, people diving when Tracy drives, etc. Their execution was ****, mostly because they aren't that good players. Another Jayz treatise on offensive basketball - again yawn. tautology much? Nachbar went through 4 coaches and 3 teams and 5 seasons before he even became an NBA player. HOw did he become one? By his spot-up three point shooting. Of course when he left his fan club whined and yelled and screamed that the coaching staff screwed him up by turning him into a three point shooter. Without a doubt? there's many doubts, that's what thsi thread is about. The guy looks too slow to guard NBA players in the NBA and can't shoot. I'd say that's a serious doubt. And yes, he looked good under FIBA rules in an exhibition tournament in one game against NBA players - sorry but that does absolutely nothinhg to dispel my doubts. No, the square hole appears to be the NBA.
well its best for billy to go to greece cuz the rox are not having a good time convincing him to stay
Which would mean he'd be giving up his salary and wouldn't be able to play basketball until the time his contract ends... This guy is a loser. He sucks on the court and finds a way to suck more off of it. Be a man and just try and improve.
a bunch of hoopla over nothing. The Rox are trying to get him to come back to play in the summer league, that's the deal. He's wanting to stay in Greece for the summer, they're trying to get him back. But he's already committed to coming back next year, he knows he's under contract and can't play ball if he don't. The Rox know that too. They're just trying to get him back to play in summer league. He's probably resisting because he knows the possibility of a trade and if he comes back and burns up the summer league that it will make him bigger trade bait, so he's probably not wanting to do the Rox any favors, probably a little get you back for having to ride the bench all season. I would be shocked if VSpan tried to get out of his contract to stay in Greece and play. It's just not going to happen.
i dont know why he would want to do this. i mean im sure hes amd and all about not playing, but new coach, new system, and most importantly- the guy has been getting a TON of attention from other teams for trades- isnt that enough to convince u to come back? im sure winning championships in greece is great and all, but nothing compares to the nba.
very good point, I never thought about that, they could use him as a trade bait to get artest or someone else good observation jopa
you can continue to have your doubts, and T-Mac, Yao, Adelman and the rest of the Rockets organization can keep calling him trying to make sure he comes back and plays...
Wow...it's really interesting to see the same old thread over and over...Just STOP. You will never agree to something...What's the point of talking about him, when everyone here has made his opinion in the first place?? To V-span haters: You say "Span good ridance." Why? Just because he played one GREAT game against USA doesn't mean he is an NBA-alls star. It just mean that he can play at NBA. But he needs time...not 5 or 6 games at the beginning and if you don't get 15ppg and 10apg then call him a scrub. He needed time...MORE time. Everyone of us,athlete or not, needs time to adjust to new things. Others want more, others less. Spanoulis didn't get that time..they put him to play SG which is not his position and he didn't adjust. Stop compare him with Parker..he is not Parker. At least in the NBA he isn't like him. But he can be a could player coming of the bench..15 minutes of good defence,hustle and energy is great for a team. Bottom line: JVG DIDN'T GIVE HIM TIME TO ADJUST.Believe it or not but it's true. To V-Span lovers: Stop comparing him to Parker or Nash,no matter what scout reports or teammates say(Yao). If every guy from Europe went in NBA and become a new Parker, then there would be no one to play in Europe. NBA is different...requires different things from players. More hustle,speed and mental strength. Spanoulis is a great player in Europe, but nothing special in the NBA for now. He has made a few mistakes,yes. You cant just go to play to Houston and think that will be a starter...no matter what they told you(if something like that occured). There is a wise Greek saying " When you hear about a lot of fruit hanging from a tree,make sure you hold a small basket" That's what he should do. Train hard and wait for your turn..and sertainly not go public and whine about time. It's not PROFESSIONAL. And something else...he was told to come back...i mean Adelman called him many times, I heard from a local channel that Mc-Grady spoke about him and asked him to come back. And few days after Rox trade Howard for James?? Very strange things...IMO. Lack of professionalism from both sides
Or they can trade him for abut the least amount of value north of nothing that you can get in the NBA - a second round pick, which is apparently what is going on.
which means some other team thinks enough of him to take on his salary and give up a pick. the prudent thing to do for someone with no shot at making it in the NBA would be to NOT acquire him and give up a pick that has no guaranteed salary attached to it...
Second round picks have a 80-90% failure rate. That plus a modest contract savings = Spanoulis NBA value according to his current employer (if the talk is true). This casts a lot of doubt on your posts from yesterday regarding your presumptions about what the Rockets think of him and seems to confirm a lot of what we have heard from Clutch and other sources (that he looks lousy in practice and some on the team feel signing him was a mistake). Let's face it - when you're getting salary dumped and you barely make any money by NBA standards - you are not doing so hot.
Chronicle Blog on V-Span Summertime blues: Still no sign of Billy Spanoulis Late in the 1999-2000 season, while chatting mostly about nothing with George Karl, I asked about former Rockets draft pick Mirsad Turkcan. Turkcan is generally known around here as one of the guys the Rockets took in the first round they year they did not take Rashard Lewis. He never played for the Rockets. When he was drafted, the Rockets thought they would probably have to trade him before he was ever given a uniform in order to create the cap room for the free agent spending they had in mind. He cost them a first round pick, and they traded him for the 76ers' first-round pick. Anyway, he played a touch for the Knicks and ended up with George and the Bucks. By that afternoon in Milwaukee, he was a player or two beyond George's rotation, and for a pretty good team, which made me wonder what kind of player he would become. George said that Mickey could have a long, productive career in the NBA, basically as a solid rotation guy, probably no more. Or he could go back to Turkey and be a star. He could have the fame, the money, the shots and he could do it at home. That was what Turkcan chose. He had played 17 NBA games, became a star in Turkey and was even the Euroleague MVP. All these years later, Rockets guard Vassilis Spanoulis is in Greece weighing similar choices. After one season and 31 games with the Rockets, he still will not say if he plans to come back and honor his contract. It's a little different than with Turkcan, who waited to be a free agent to leave. And the Bucks were not terribly heartbroken about it. But if Spanoulis someday decides that he wants to be home and that he wants to play in Greece and be a national hero and whatever else he can be, I could not entirely blame him. But for now, he has a contract. He made a commitment. If he is not happy with his rookie season, well, that's understandable, but a lot of guys have not been happy with the rookie seasons. A year ago, Fabricio Oberto, a much more accomplished international player, played in just 59 games, averaging less playing time in those games than Spanoulis did in his. This year, Oberto started for the NBA champions. Spanoulis has a chance to be a good NBA player and have a long and satisfying career. But it's more than a month since the Rockets' season ended and he still will not tell the Rockets if he will be back. Daryl Morey has called. Rick Adelman has called. He has so far refused to work out with the summer league team or even commit for next season. Yao Ming is working out every day at Toyota Center, going from the practice court to the weight room. He has worked out twice with Hakeem Olajuwon, works almost every day with Carroll Dawson and next week will begin scheduling sessions with Jack Sikma. Spanoulis needs to be here, at least when the summer team starts working out, and he needs to be doing that for the Rockets and for himself. A few weeks with a new coaching staff and new system could be huge for next season, and if he does not feel a need to give the Rockets that effort, he probably owes it to himself. If he does not want a career and a life so far from home, that would be understandable. It would still represent a mistake that would hurt the Rockets for having wasted an investment in him. Still, it is a long way from home and family. But if he is still bruised from his frustrating rookie season, he needs to get over it and become a better player. If he has any thoughts of ever playing in the NBA again, he needs to get going. The Rockets could order him to the summer league but won't. They could also bar him from signing with a FIBA team, though they certainly don't want it to come to that. They have, however, made plans that include him. And they have paid him $1.8 million so far. Spanoulis' confidence and competitiveness, besides making his rookie season so frustrating, are some of his greatest qualities as a player. The Rockets could use those traits. It's time he puts those talents to work. He always seemed to be a guy with abundant mental toughness and ambition, too much to walk away after one bad season. It could work out for him to go back to the basketball worlds he already conquered, but it would seem a waste if his NBA career becomes a footnote next to Turkcan's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I 100% agree with this.........If Billy really wants to play in the NBA, the time is now..... But, if he would rather stay in Greece and be a star, there is not much you can do. If he chooses to return to Greece, I will always blame JVG for ruining the chance of V-Span being a player for the Houston Rockets, JVG took a short sighted approach, and it bit him and the organization in the ass. That being said, V-Span needs to be tougher and come back this year and prove all the detractors wrong.... We shall see. DD
This is exactly what I think. Spanoulis can play, I saw more than enough last year to tell me that he is much more talented than Alston, Lucas, and Head. I think in all honesty there is no legit explanation for how he was used and the PT he got. But think of these words that were spoken during the playoffs. Doug Collins said during the Eastern Conference Finals, "Last year the Pistons didn't develop their bench at all and exhausted their starters. That was all the decision of Flip Saunders and his players and GM didn't like that decision. It wore out all of the starters and it lost a year of development for a group of talented young bench players that Joe Dumars put together. Before this year Dumars sat down with Flip and told him to develop the bench. They won 11 less games in the regular season and may not get any further in the playoffs, but the their starters won't be as worn out next year and their young players now have confidence, know they can play, and now the Pistons know what they have in them." That comment, from a 4 time NBA all-star, a long time NBA head coach and a long time NBA analyst, seems to be 100% contradictory to the viewpoint of Jeff Van Gundy and also fans in this thread arguing Spanoulis got a fair trial last year. Is Jeff Van Gundy and their viewpoint only right? It agrees with Flip Saunders, but it seems Doug Collins and Hall of Famer Joe Dumars disagree totally. Now consider what Kenny Smith said during the Dallas/Golden State series. "Look what Baron Davis does with ease, he gets in the lane. To every young aspiring point guard out there, if you want to make it to the NBA and make it in the NBA, just learn to get into the lane at will. You can make it in this league even if that's all you can do. Even if you aren't good at any other skill, if your're a point guard and you can get into the lane at will, you cannot be stopped by any team or any defense." Well Kenny Smith was the starting point guard on 2 championship teams, while members here saying thinks like "Spanoulis stinks" or "he's Euro trash" or whatever never played point guard in the NBA. His former coach, coach Van Gundy, was a point guard that never made it past the collegiate level. So who knows point guard play better? Kenny Smith, who suggests that it is Spanoulis' ability to penetrate that should automatically make him a good NBA point guard, or the opinion of coach Gundy that he isn't a good point guard because he cannot impersonate Luther Head (who I find to be another Eddie House) well? Or is it the fans here who are calling him trash because he, according to 82games.com played all of his minutes at either SG or SF last year? How good would McGrady be if he was told to be a primarily spot up shooter and played all of his minutes at PF? It is also interesting to note that also according to 82games.com, even though Spanoulis was played all of his minutes out of position on defense at SG and SF (a 6-4 195 6-5 wingspan SF???) he had very good defensive numbers team wise per possession, while Luther Head and John Lucas who played their minutes at their natural positions, were absolutely terrible on defense using those same stats, and remember we have a stats-oriented guru GM. I thought Van Gundy largely based playing time on defense? That's what he always said. Then why was Spanoulis below Head and Lucas on the depth chart? Seems like a contradiction to me. Think about it, Spanoulis is bigger than Head at SG, plays better D, some fans here are saying he "sucked" on offense, well how does this explain Hayes at PF then if Van Gundy is being consistent? I know, people will say look at the positional depth, but then how do they explain the playoff series against Utah when Alston, Lucas, and Head were allowed to play horribly and against a poor match up and Spanoulis doesn't play? Head did nothing but be a defensive and offensive liability all series long, and Spanoulis doesn't even sniff a 2 or 3 minute shot at defending the pick and roll with Deron Williams? I know, the argument will be, we would risk falling behind during that 2 or 3 minute stretch, yet of course we were basically behind all 3 games at Utah for the entire game, so that argument is obviously tenuous at best. Isn't a coach supposed to at least try if he has a defensive improvement on the bench and he's supposed to be a great defensive coach to at least give the guy a shot when you are already down by 15? Instead coach Gundy threw Lucas out there. If people really think Lucas is better than Spanoulis then I don't even know how to counter. I am not saying that this is about Van Gundy causing all of Spanoulis' problems at all, please understand what I am saying and do not label me a, "Van Gundy hater," because I am no Van Gundy hater at all, I very much respect his knowledge of the game and his dedication as a coach. What I am saying is that for whatever reason, whether legit or not, Spanoulis didn't get a fair chance last year. Also, I feel anyone who really believes Lucas should have been ahead of him on the depth chart is simply just being a hater. I am not arguing that Van Gundy was out to get him, maybe Billy was being difficult in practice who knows? But it is painfully obvious IMO that Spanoulis was treated sub-par as compared to the other players on the team and that includes Wells. For so many fans to be arguing this and then saying from what they saw he sucked, tells me they didn't even pay attention last season. It's like some fans saw a completely different set of events.
