[ESPN] New York Knicks Making Progress on Carmelo Anthony Trade

I agree with everything except the bolded part. It is the preseason. And we have 3 pg already.

 

Exactly, assuming the Knicks will end up with a better record than ours in 2011 is pretty unlikely, even with the possibility of injuries. Further, the 2012 pick IS owned outright, and assuming the knicks get Chris Paul and push our draft pick all the way back to #29 is even more unlikely. If we're playing a game of assumptions here, which we clearly are, then I believe that predicting that we will have a better record than the Knicks in 2011 and that the Knicks will not push us back to the last pick of the first round in 2012 are much safer assumptions than yours

 

And by yours, I of course mean ol' Brian_Chapman.

 

I don't think those of us who no longer want Carmelo are saying that he's a scrub by any means. Yes he's a superstar and yes any team with him on it should rightfully be in the playoffs every year. The problem is that those of us with any kind of memory will hearken back to 2004. At that time we acquired a star who by most measures was BETTER than Carmelo is at this point in time. He had just come off two years of being the scoring champ, his talent seemed limitless, and pairing him with an up-and-coming Yao sounded like a formula for years of championship contention.

Now I know that Carmelo is not T-Mac. True they are wired differently and it's impossible to tease out any particular personality traits from T-Mac that contributed to the whole of him becoming what ultimately was a superstar with no playoff success who eventually turned on his team and stabbed them in the back when they needed him most. But from a fan's standpoint it's perfectly fair to analyze the situation and look for what went wrong so that hopefully we'll be prepared should the situation arise again.

In Carmelo, there are some very disturbing similarities to T-Mac. True, he has no injury history, and I'm not gonna pin anything on Carmelo that happened to T-Mac even though he had no injury history either before joining us. However, they both have/had limitless talent. They both are primary scorers so good at their jobs that you can choose to ignore how they play defense. But then looking at their on-court behavior you can also tell that there's something drastically missing in each person, that humble tenacity you see in guys like Duncan or Durant, the edge to put in the time to prepare by outworking everybody in the gym you see in Kobe, the pride taken on the defensive end you see in Garnett. Both have a history of losing composure on the court, having games when they develop tunnel vision and shoot their teams out of games with an array of fadeaways and 3pters with both feet on the line.

When I say that in my estimation, Carmelo is not a winner, that does not mean that he's not good, at times great. That just means that I don't think he'll ever be a guy who can lead his team to a championship. Others have pointed this out also--Denver only got past the first round when it acquired Billups, a winner by any definition you have of it. A winner's not someone who simply wants to chuck up the last shot with the clock winding down; it's someone who's willing to put whatever work is necessary beforehand to maximize his and his team's chances for winning. Melo and Tracy their whole lives seemed to rely mostly on talent to get where they are. What happens when that talent starts to slip? We saw what happened in 2009.

For the Rockets at this moment, we've passed the point where we need an infusion of more talent. We've got tons of it; it's just too spread out. But it won't do simply to concentrate the talent. We need a talented guy who embodies the same winning qualities that we see in guys like Chuck Hayes, Luis Scola, Kyle Lowry. I just don't see that in Carmelo, and come to think of it I never have.

 

The Knicks still need to put together a deal that Denver would actually agree too. I have a hard time believing that they actually can.

Amare would also need to be healthy all year for them to be considered a playoff team. That's hardly a guarantee.

I'm sure David Stern wants Carmelo in NY.

 

worthless to other teams as trade value.

Teams don't want mid to late round picks for good players.

They buy mid to late first round picks and If the Knicks are good We'll just end up with the 23rd overall pick. sure sounds enticing

Value? yeah, more good role players on an already Jam packed roster of good role players.

Rockets are stockpiling on Role players.

We could have rebuilt quickly next year with those assets but if the Knicks are good then those pick will be late rounders.

Late rounders are not potential star players.

If they are not star players they are role players.

If they are role players we have too many already.

THEY ARE WORTHLESS.

 

A great post but I disagree with two of your last assertions.

1) More talent is usually better. Concentrating/limiting it to the rotational (8-9) players would be a huge boost to the team.
2) Knuckleheads can buy into a team culture. It happens all the time in every sport. Carl Everett in Houston, Randy Moss in New England, Stephen Jackson in San Antonio. Hell even Ron Artest in Houston somewhat. Knuckleheads don't typically have a long history with any one team but they can get the job done for a few seasons.

I believe being around Yao/Shane/Chuck/Scola would have a positive effect on Melo. Especially because they all buy into Rick's plan.

Before Billups, Melo was the unquestioned leader of the Nuggets whether he deserved it or not. The culture of that team was not conducive to making Melo adjust his attitude. Our team is completely different. We have a system and everyone buys into it. Everyone who couldn't is gone (Wafer, Artest, Alston, etc.)

 

Houston: Billups
New York: Melo
Denver: Lowry, Hill, Randolph, Chandler, Gallo, Curry, ny pick.

Make a move later for iggy with 2pat, budinger, knick pick and jeffries.

 

We trade Lowry, Hill and the New York pick for Billups? No thank you! Why on earth would we do that? While I'd love to have Billups, who's still very good, even if on the downside of his career, I certainly wouldn't pay that price for him. If he's included in a deal that favors the Rocks, then far out.

 

Kind of off topic but the Durant praise is getting ridiculous. The guy is a great player but he has not even won ONE PLAYOFF SERIES YET! Let the guy actually accomplish something before putting him in the same breath as Duncan, Kobe, and Garnett, all guys who have not only won playoff series but won titles.

 

Would you still give up that package if Carmelo didn't commit to resigning with the Rockets?

 

I guess AB ended up being a role player then?

 

Agreed.

DD

 

1st round draft picks for Anthony Randolph.

Git er done Morey!

 

With the Denver team, take a look at the 02/03 roster and compare it to the 03/04 roster. Melo was not the only change they made.

The top 6 players by minutes played for Denver in 03/04 are: Melo, Andre Miller, Nene, Voshon Lenard, Camby and Boykins.

The top 6 players by minutes played in 02/03 are: Juwan Howard, Nene, Junior Harrington, Donnell Harvey, Rodney White and Vincent Yarborough.

Nene (who was 20 and 21 year old in these two season) was the only thing in common between the two lists. This is not to say that Melo didn't make an impact, but the guys he played with, especially Andre Miller and Marcus Camby, were a lot better than the 17-win 02/03 Nuggets (who were in full salary dumping/tanking mode).

For Amare:

First, a 6-game "turnaround" isn't all that significant. The Suns scored 0.4 poitns per 100 possessions more than the year before, and allowed 1.5 less points scored per 100 possessions less.

Second, in year 2 of the Amare era, the Suns dropped to 29 wins and 53 losses. Why couldn't he save that team from the lottery? (Yes, they did trade Marbury 36 games into the season, but they were already horrible at that time).

 

He isn't a star and on a championship team he is not the number 1 or 2 so yeah, A role player.

Shows you how much a team with role players did last year.

 

Because deckard, talent at 1-12 is good for grinding out wins in the regular season but talent at 1-8 is what wins games in the playoffs. Essentially with this trade you are upgrading starting point and back up point at the cost of Hill and a pick, neither of which are going to be contributors in the playoffs. Normally I don't advocate trading for older players but billups seems to be goin strong and pg seems less affected by age (kidd, nash). Just my opinion anyway.

Billups/Brooks. > Brooks/Lowry

 

Nothing to see here folks. Denver is just trying to use NY as leverage to get a better deal from .....the Rockets!!!

 

its not a good thing if someone else is upping the price for the rockets!

 

Yeah I admit it's true what Bill Simmons says about being able to have one crazie per clubhouse but not two. I'm just wary of having that crazie be the best player and de facto team leader (since we have no one of Billups' ilk or tenure right now, yes Battier is vocal but not talented enough at this point, and Yao of course will never do a thing to wrest captaincy from a teammate that wants it). Moss had Brady. Everett had Biggio and Bagwell (and he wasn't crazy either, dinosaurs really DON'T exist!). Artest had Kobe last year and might have been an even better player for the Rockets in 2009 had he not felt like the keys to the car were up for grabs after T-Mac quit on us.

Carmelo on the Rockets in 2009 without losing excess pieces (I'd say any combination of 3-4 assets not including Yao or Martin or probably Brooks) will probably give us more wins in the regular season. I just don't think 1.) that when the time comes, he'll be of the kind of quality necessary to win a championship by putting the team first and focusing on defense, and 2.) that he wants to sign an extension in Houston to be the single guy on whom all the pressure is placed. It's really eerie how much of a McGrady vibe I get from it.