Sorry, I did not mean to pretend that I have been watching the Rockets longer, and I am not sure what the significance of that kind of comparison is. All I wanted to say was that I think it was a good trade for both teams and I wish Francis and Mobley well, and of course the Rockets always remain my favorite team. Listening to you, you sound very pessimistic, since you kind of seem to bash McGrady and Howard a lot. I understand you want to defend Francis, but I think a lot of people actually said they will continue to cheer for him and that they think it was a good trade for both teams. Therefore, I am not sure why you seem to be angry. No offense.
Now that's more like it! Now I'm feeling the love! SJC, I think you misunderstand pgab quite a bit (or, if not, then I do). Too many people just gloss over what we've actually paid to get TMac. When you see people saying Ward brings more to the team than Francis ever did, it should give one the urge to correct the foolishness of others.
Let it go guys...quit arguing over this....It's a lose lose situation and nothing will get resolved...it's like trying to make peace in the middle east, impossible to settle b/c neither side is willing to give in and be objective...Steve's gone, let him do his thing in Orlando and I will definitely support him, but Rockets come first. We can enjoy both them, if you hate him you're entitled to your view just as if you like him you're entitled to that...let's move on quit and arguing over this.
Of course, I expected no better from you. How nice of you to make an excuse "oh Francis only played 55 games" while ignoring that Grant Hill only played 16 and 4 games the season before that. I mean you are so right, Francis and Mobley already won 45 games without Yao but with Hakeem, who ironically was the one that stepped up late in the season and get them the 45. I definitely see your argument there. I mean, just love how you love making excuses for Francis. His team won only 28 because he only played 28 then don't allow others to make excuses for other players. I mean, yeah, use Francis' best season and compare it to TMac's worst season. So let's completely ignore all the other season and only focus on the comparable ones, 2001. Let me spell it out for you: Francis + Cat + Cato - Yao got you 43 wins TMac + Mike Miller - J Howard - Lue - Hill got them 42 wins I mean, sure, I definitely see a staggering difference there. So it appears to me that (when he actually cares), TMac alone offsets the impact of Francis + Cat, without J Howard and Lue.
it might be better to say, we got the core of a badly manageed, badly coached team that underachieved, ended up quitting on the season and only winning 21 games (Gooden, Howard, were two good players who were also to blame) - they got some key players (not core) from a team that had plateu-ed 45 wins, 43 wins, 45 wins. The reason this was not the "core" - 1) Cato was garbage - for five years he is the albotross on this teams' neck, then he has one good season as a $7 million backup Center (playing 20 mins) and he becomes the "CORE" - nevermind all the foul trouble he was in... or the DNP - Coaches Decisions he had down the stretch 2) it is aruable that JJ was better than (or at least equal to) Cat. While he didn't score always, he took his shots in the flow of the game and got good rebounds - they were both good defenders. look at it this way - take away the traded players from both teams and see how much of the "core" is really missing - Orlando (w/o T, JH, Gaines and Lue) would have Gooden, the 1st pick (another PF) and Steven Hunter (and bad Center)... oh yeah and Grant Hill and his one good leg the Rockets would have Yao, Mo T and Jim Jackson to at least build around (Sura, Ward, JJ, Yao, and Mo T) - while not a playoff team in the West, still a much more complete team than Orlando would have had - so you can't say it was a "core" of a good team for the "core" of a bad team
Wait a second, isn't that pgab's point? That the Magic had no talent? I mean, you can see that in the post right after yours. So which one is it? Do the Magic have talent or not? If not then he assumes they won't go to the playoffs with Hill coming back and the Dwight addition because of ... what? What magically transforms an improved Magic team from a non playoff team to an EC contender? The trade? I'm guessing that implies we got royally screwed over the deal.
Hey, I respect you, I thought I showed that by my post. I think I'm the one not being appreciated here. As for not getting respect from others, I really don't think it's McGrady hating as supposed to Francis hogging. If you flip open a dictionary to SOF, you'd find a picture of pgab. The problem is that after the YOF vs. SOF debatcle, people are tired of it. So if you want to be notorious for being an anti - TMac OF (?) you gotta at least wait until the season starts.
I know he got shipped out of town - hell I picked him up in fantasy basketball since he will be taking Boozer's place collecting the rebounds off LeBron's bricks - my point was to strip the teams of all the players invovled and see what was left (at that point in time). They had Gooden and and Hill - the Rockets had JJ, Yao, and Mo T (and his infated contract). I think that 29 out of 30 GM's would take the Rockets leftover group rather than the Magic's (the 1 being Mr. Hockey-man) - SO, it is not accurate to say that the Rockets traded their CORE for the Magic's CORE. It WAS the Magic's core, but the Rockets only traded SOME good players.
It looks like pgabriel just asked why the players Tracy played with in Orlando were so horrible and now that they're on the Rockets they're exactly what we need. The Magic had and have talent, and shouldn't be horrible this season and shouldn't have been horrible last season, as a matter of fact, most people this time last year thought the Magic would IMPROVE from the previous season.
This is a good side-by-side comparison. But lets break it out a bit more...Look at each team's root problems...(in parens...) 1) Francis + Cat + Cato - Yao got you 43 wins (high turnover point guard) 2) TMac + Mike Miller - J Howard - Lue - Hill got them 42 wins (bad defense). Each team won and lost for different reasons. So, what's more possible? Teaching Francis to not turn the ball over so much? Or teaching McGrady, Howard, Lue to play better defense? Dumb is dumb. And Francis will never "learn" how to keep his turnovers down. That was a fact. Five years and no change. At least with McGrady, Howard and Lue, they give a better package (more complete players) that are more easily integrated into a TEAM. As long as JVG enforces DEFENSE with those guys, their normal offensive skills will fall into place. Add Yao to the mix, and we are THAT MUCH BETTER. As a TEAM! So, 42 wins, 45 wins? Bah!!! I don't care. They are all mediocre! Average! But McGrady, Lue and Howard are upgrades in terms of individual talent. Even Jordan couldn't win more than 40 games in his first few seasons. Not until he got a team around him (as well as grew individually). McGrady understands this. Yao is the key for him. Lets see if Yao and McGrady play together; as a unit. And while we're at it. Lets leave the turnovers to Orlando. Good riddance! P.S. Who in their right mind wouldn't take Jordan, KG or Duncan if they only achived a 35-40 win season? You still can watch them on the court and see (with your OWN eyes) if they are making good decisions or not. Good shots? Are they passing well? Do they run plays well? That's how you make an assesment on their over-all-talent. Not *just* their record.
No. I just quoted your team by team comparison. The post is for anyone. It's just wanted to spell out that it's not just about wins/losses in terms of the Houston vs Orlando trade. Edit: read above post again. I edited it for more clarity.
My deepest condolences go out to Magic fans all over the world and it is my sincerest hope that the game of basketball will still endure in central Florida despite the coming season of dumb and dumber ball they are about to witness firsthand. If it is any consolation to them, we Rocket fans are living proof that the game of basketball can indeed rise from the nadir of mental permafrost and thrive again gloriously. In the meantime, I invite any and all Magic fans to come over to our side. Don't be shy - feel free to defect on over, if only for an occasional respite. We have plenty of Yao, TMac, and JVG to share with the downtrodden
There is no question that the Magic got better this offseason. They most likely will make the playoffs and have a larger increase in their win totals than the Rockets will (then again when you only win 19 games the previous season this would happen rather naturally). However, I seriously doubt that this Magic team, as it is assembled now, will have a chance to compete for a championship anytime soon. The Rockets, however, have positioned themselves for an extended run as a legit contender (although it is true that we need to add more pieces). Therefore, I don't see how you can say that the Magic got the "better" end of the trade.
That is why Rocket' fans are considered by many to be the dumbest and worst fans in the NBA. Edit: Shouldn't have said worst and dumbest either, but it's bad when we're compared to fans of the Wizards, Hawks, Clippers, and Warriors, that's all I'm saying.
